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Switch to Forum Live View Some help for those who didn't know.
6 years ago  ::  Aug 21, 2008 - 4:18AM #1
darkthroneofeth
Posts: 153
Goethe;  Blavatsky;  Agrippa;  Waite; Crowley; Djwal Kul; Leadbeater; Konstantinos; Bailey and Besant. 

I have found books by all of the above to be of more value than most any other. Kabbalistic authors are variant, but I think that the authentic Rabbis are the best source for this.
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6 years ago  ::  Aug 25, 2008 - 3:25PM #2
EyesoftheWorld
Posts: 1,707
Hi again darktrhoneofeth (I replied to your thread/question in the other forum).
I really appreciate your sharing.
From your list, I have only read Crowley though my reading of his works is becoming rather extensive.
Assuming there remain things I cannot obtain from reading only his works, who from your list would be the best complement to Crowley?

Thanks!
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6 years ago  ::  Aug 27, 2008 - 10:16AM #3
DotNotInOz
Posts: 6,833
Find which authors speak meaningfully to you for your own self.

Yeah, I'll suggest certain authors or books in response to a question, but I generally don't find someone else's list of worthwhile writings that useful.

I've learned quite a lot from writers who I later determined were mostly talking crap. If nothing else, reading widely finetunes your ability to discern who appears to know what they're talking about and who doesn't.

For anything written on Theosophy, Golden Dawn, Thelema, New Age...whatever in this "woo-woo, waaaay out there" stuff, one person's stunningly enlightening read will be another's obvious, pedantic crap.

That said, I've found about 1/4 of the writers you listed to be fairly worthless from the get-go, another quarter useful and a third extremely so. The remainder, I've never read.

You didn't really think I'd tell you which fall into each category, now did you?
< sassy, wicked grin >
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6 years ago  ::  Aug 27, 2008 - 10:54AM #4
EyesoftheWorld
Posts: 1,707
Well, Dot, let me explain.
I am curious as to what "sorcery" means. I posted this question one of this Forum's threads but nobody has replied.
I asked this thread's original poster to tell me who, among the authors he listed, would complement Crowley, who is the only person I've read that could be considered remotely connected to sorcery.
After he answered, I was going to ask him what exactly or even in general would all of this reading "help" me to accomplish or acheive! See this thread's title? "Some help"? Help with what?!
I doubt I would take whatever names would be or would have been suggested, and go read them. As it is, I've got a huge backlog of Crowley and Nietzsche to get to and I'm not going to get into casting spells, summoning elementals (which I've gathered from these parts isn't that big of a deal) or anything more potent, or even performing ceremonies or rituals. I just wanted to set up my question.
I like chess, you see.

Here, for everyone's benefit is that quote from the Tao the Ching I posted in the Ceremonial Magick Forum:

When the Tao is lost, there is goodness.
When goodness is lost, there is morality.
When morality is lost, there is ritual.
Ritual is the husk of true faith,
the beginning of chaos.

I'm trying to get back into the Tao, the way I was before I was born and the way I've felt a few times in my life.

Take care everyone, and please, nobody cast any spells on me. That's bad karma, right?

See y'all around.
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6 years ago  ::  Aug 27, 2008 - 3:05PM #5
DotNotInOz
Posts: 6,833

EyesoftheWorld wrote:

Well, Dot, let me explain.
I am curious as to what "sorcery" means. I posted this question one of this Forum's threads but nobody has replied.



Good question, Rob. I've sometimes wondered just what 'zactly it is supposed to mean myself.

I asked this thread's original poster to tell me who, among the authors he listed, would complement Crowley, who is the only person I've read that could be considered remotely connected to sorcery.



Gotcha. And I considered giving you a straight answer instead of the more smartass one I posted.

Try Blavatsky. The others that I'm familiar with on the list are somewhat tangential to AC's philosophy, IMO.

After he answered, I was going to ask him what exactly or even in general would all of this reading "help" me to accomplish or acheive! See this thread's title? "Some help"? Help with what?!



Oh, I suspect that you and I both have theories that would answer those questions, which we probably ought not elaborate upon here.... :rolleyes:

I doubt I would take whatever names would be or would have been suggested, and go read them. As it is, I've got a huge backlog of Crowley and Nietzsche to get to and I'm not going to get into casting spells, summoning elementals (which I've gathered from these parts isn't that big of a deal) or anything more potent, or even performing ceremonies or rituals.



Pretty much my "take" on such lists as I'm sure you surmised.

I like chess, you see.



There we differ. Detest the game myself as I'm rotten at spatial relations.

Here, for everyone's benefit is that quote from the Tao the Ching I posted in the Ceremonial Magick Forum:

When the Tao is lost, there is goodness.
When goodness is lost, there is morality.
When morality is lost, there is ritual.
Ritual is the husk of true faith,
the beginning of chaos.



Much merit to the above, IMO. I like the philosophy.

I'm trying to get back into the Tao, the way I was before I was born and the way I've felt a few times in my life.



When I realize I've drifted far afield from that modality as I perceive it, I usually think of a remark made when a group of latter teenaged college theatre techies, myself one of them, started talking about sex one day. The shop manager, a much older guy who was far more experienced in such than most of us, commented rather acidly when he determined what we were discussing, "I'd much rather do it than talk about it. Since the former is frowned upon in the shop, get your sorry asses back to work."

Frequently, I know just what he meant when I get into the tedious methodology of some rituals.

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6 years ago  ::  Aug 27, 2008 - 3:46PM #6
EyesoftheWorld
Posts: 1,707
Blavatsky is the only one from that list besides Crowley of course, that I had heard of before. I read in one of the intros to one of the books I have, (the intro may have been written by I. Regardie) about how he couldn't understand Crowley's esteem for Blavatsky b/c she was so anti-Western.

The other things you wrote made me think of two quotes:

"It's not the same to speak of bulls as to be in the bullring."
and
"Talking about Zen is like looking for fish-tracks in a dry riverbed."

As I said, I have no interest in getting into sorcery but I'm very curious as to what it is that can be done. Not that I really expect people to be as candid as I sometimes am, especially about something so "otherworldly". It's hard for me to conceive of other planes, such as I have read about in Crowley. in that Konx on Pax book it starts with the two different Angels one would meet if they progressed to a certain point, and which one you'd meet would depend on whether you were "evil" or "good". That's just too much for me. I think I'd have a heart attack if I actually saw something like that. And I don't want to take any chances with screwing up a circle or a phrase and unleasing something on myself or others. etc. There's too much fun and experience to have on this world for me to start thinking about delving into others. Though of course one could say "it's all one world", but I think you know what I mean. It just doesn't seem worth the risk, you know? It almost seems "unnatural", but like the previous sentence, I can see it from the "of course it's natural"! POV, but I think I'm going to draw the line at "invoking" and "spells" and even "rituals", though that word to me is so vague, but I'll know a ritual I won't do when I don't do it.
I plan on contenting myself with being as simple as possible while learning as much as I can while not getting too bogged down "in the profuse chaos of symbols" as FN put it. I guess I'm trying to attain my own concept of balance.

Take care

P.S. I hope darkthroneofeth doesn't mind us using the thread he started in an effort to help. I'd still love to know what it is he's capable of, but I just want to hear or read about it. I don't want to see or experience anything directly!
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6 years ago  ::  Aug 27, 2008 - 5:51PM #7
DotNotInOz
Posts: 6,833
It's important to be aware, IMO, that when Crowley spoke most dictatorially about such things, he probably intended to scare off the hesitant or unwary. I've never been that certain that this encounter with one angel or the other would actually occur. That its outcome supposedly would result from the magickian's being either "evil" or "good" makes me immediately suspicious.

But then, I've not done such a ritual nor would I attempt one. However, I'm not about to discount that the result of the ritual might be exactly as Crowley said. It's often difficult to impossible to determine when he was serious, when he was setting up a "blind" to fend off the foolhardy or stupid and when he was simply full of the proverbial substance and hoping to impress the reader with his stature and accomplishments. Even so, he himself stated that he often thought that all entities encountered in ritual might simply be dramatic manifestations of the magickian's own psyche. Something to that mode of thinking, IMO.

I've had enough positive, although sometimes alarming, experiences and sensations resulting from doing rituals that I think working with them is valuable.

YMMV, however. [Your mileage may vary.]
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6 years ago  ::  Aug 27, 2008 - 6:26PM #8
EyesoftheWorld
Posts: 1,707
Hmmm. I'm pretty sure the Angel one would see if they were good was named "Adonai". One would be confronted by him if one tried to pass between two particular pillars and Adonai would say something like "turn back, you cannot tolerate the Light beyond this point."
The other Angel's name I'm blanking on, which I'll take as a good thing. I think he would be found at the same "place" as Adonai, that is before two pillars. I think it's the same two pillars.
I find the idea "good" and "evil" individuals would wind up at the same place but have different experiences to be "pretty cool" haha.
There was nothing I can recall about what could be found if one could somehow get past the Angels or if they let one pass. I'm pretty interested in checking that passage out. It was the first thing in Konx on Pax and it was like two pages long.
I haven't finished that little book. There's a rather long story narrated by a girl who loves a wizard and he's taking her around his estate. It seems to be a parable or allegory. I skipped ahead to a really fun but sublime parable about a Taoist master who swims to Japan and helps a crumbling empire get back on track. I think I was reading "The Law is For All" and the explanation suggested checking out that story.
Anyway, I have thought maybe all this stuff happens inside a person's head. I have had a few experiences that I know weren't directly caused by anything not from this physical world, but the experience was totally unlike my normal consciousness, so the experience was in my head. Thus I am familiar with the brain's potential to create staggering visions that have meaning. Is salvia divinorum illegal where you are? It's still legal here. I still have some left over from the amount I bought over 5 years ago! That's how much I respect/almost fear it.
I see what you're saying about Crowley possibly trying to scare people away. "Foolhardy' is an interesting word choice though, as it seems a foolhardy person may rush right in. One of the Dead's best all around songs is "Terrapin Station" which begin with "Lady with a Fan" which concerns a lady throwing her fan into a lion's den and there's a soldier and a sailor. "The sailor gave at least a try; the soldier being much too wise; strategy was his strength, not disaster." Anyway, the sailor comes out w/the aforesaid fan and the lady is his. "Lady with a Fan" end thusly: "That's how it stands today. You decide if he was wise. The storyteller makes no choice; soon you will not hear his voice. His job is to shed light, not to master." then a musical interlude into "Terrapin Station" that has nothing to do with said sailor, lady or soldier and which I believe is a massive ode to Love, which sort of gives the thumbs up to the sailor's goal but nothing about the risk he took. I'd like to be the sailor, but usually I take the soldier's mentality. There are some interesting details about both characters but i'm getting way off topic.
I have also thought maybe Crowley was just making up stories to impress/astound and build an aura about him. Don't get me wrong though, I think he's an amazing scholar and a pretty good writer. I get into phases where I devour everything I can from a writer.
By the way, I found an old copy of the out of print "Magick Without Tears"! I haven't even started it yet. I didn't realize it was OOP. It was at the bookstore I mention elsewhere when I went to pick up the book I ordered. I presume you're familiar with it?
I'm really interested to hear/read about any experiences/sensations you're comfortable relating. I'll send you a message.
take care.
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6 years ago  ::  Aug 28, 2008 - 9:40AM #9
EyesoftheWorld
Posts: 1,707
[QUOTE=EyesoftheWorld;719568]Hmmm. I'm pretty sure the Angel one would see if they were good was named "Adonai". One would be confronted by him if one tried to pass between two particular pillars and Adonai would say something like "turn back, you cannot tolerate the Light beyond this point."
The other Angel's name I'm blanking on, which I'll take as a good thing. I think he would be found at the same "place" as Adonai, that is before two pillars. I think it's the same two pillars.
I find the idea "good" and "evil" individuals would wind up at the same place but have different experiences to be "pretty cool" haha.
There was nothing I can recall about what could be found if one could somehow get past the Angels or if they let one pass. I'm pretty interested in checking that passage out. It was the first thing in Konx on Pax and it was like two pages long.[/QUOTE]
Alright, I apologize for writing this drivel. I did a horrible job of remembering. The Great Angels are, if one is good, Metatron; if one is evil, Samael. They appear to the Neophyte when the Neophyte comes from between the two pillars seeking hidden knowledge in the name of Adonai. The Angels each have their own greeting/speech, customized for the type of Neophyte they confront. I copied the text and greetings/speeches and have it before me. Just post interest and I'll elaborate on this.

Sorry again!
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6 years ago  ::  Aug 28, 2008 - 2:12PM #10
DotNotInOz
Posts: 6,833
Magick Without Tears is EXCELLENT, imo.

Yeah, my copy shows definite spine creasing from having been used so much. Along with The Big Blue Brick, it's my most-cherished Thelemic text.

Its text shows Crowley at his best, IMO. For once, he left off the posturing and simply instructs the student with whom he was corresponding in a straightforward often kind manner. He doesn't hesitate, though, to suggest she needs a good "posterior rearrangement" on occasion when he thinks she's whining too much and/or being lazy.

Reminds me of my own mentor when I was first getting into Thelema. His best motivator for me was, "Okay, so you don't want to or think you can't. Go back to being a New Age fluff-bunny then. Whatever you decide to do, quit whining to me. I'm not listening to that bullshit."

I'll look into Konx om Pax. I think I've got a copy of it somewhere in the magick collection.

As for the moment, gotta get back to that rumored condition other people have called real life. More later.
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