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2 years ago  ::  Jun 28, 2012 - 2:22AM #41
Namchuck
Posts: 11,661

Jun 27, 2012 -- 5:38PM, BodhiBick wrote:



Thanks for mentioning Steven Pinkers book - 'The Better Angles of Our Nature.' I just downloaded a Kindle edition of it. Another book that may be of interest is by Harvard Professor, George E. Vaillant titled, 'Spiritual Evolution.'


www.amazon.com/Spiritual-Evolution-Wired...






Thanks for the book reference, BodhiBick, I'll check it out.

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2 years ago  ::  Jul 01, 2012 - 12:25PM #42
BodhiBick
Posts: 78

For anyone interested...


"Mystics are esotericists; that is why they are often criticised as being anti-irrational and arrogantly “enlightened”. Exotericists (includes fundamentalists) cannot understand this because the concept is not intellectually graspable. Esotericists by contrast have no problems with religious formulas because the formulas aren’t to them absolute. Over the course of history then mysticism has had a two-sidedness: it can effectively support dogmas or it can undermine them. Esotericists have suffered for this and in most religions have not just been excommunicated but often they are thrown into prison or even burned at the stake." ~ From the article (link below)


www.kyrie.com/inner/mysticism/all_will_b...

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2 years ago  ::  Jul 01, 2012 - 4:41PM #43
Namchuck
Posts: 11,661

Jul 1, 2012 -- 12:25PM, BodhiBick wrote:


For anyone interested...


"Mystics are esotericists; that is why they are often criticised as being anti-irrational and arrogantly “enlightened”. Exotericists (includes fundamentalists) cannot understand this because the concept is not intellectually graspable. Esotericists by contrast have no problems with religious formulas because the formulas aren’t to them absolute. Over the course of history then mysticism has had a two-sidedness: it can effectively support dogmas or it can undermine them. Esotericists have suffered for this and in most religions have not just been excommunicated but often they are thrown into prison or even burned at the stake." ~ From the article (link below)


www.kyrie.com/inner/mysticism/all_will_b...




Whether one is an esotericist or an exotericist, both start out assuming the thing they are trying to prove or experience. There is nothing meritocratic in this, and probably the reason why 'mysticism' has never achieved very much and is always vague and nebulous.


On the other hand, if we're talking about spirituality, or the spiritual, I see it as being the relationship between one's consciousness and the cosmos. It is not the study of the cosmos - that's science - but how one relates to it.

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2 years ago  ::  Jul 01, 2012 - 8:42PM #44
BodhiBick
Posts: 78

Jul 1, 2012 -- 4:41PM, Namchuck wrote:


Jul 1, 2012 -- 12:25PM, BodhiBick wrote:


For anyone interested...


"Mystics are esotericists; that is why they are often criticised as being anti-irrational and arrogantly “enlightened”. Exotericists (includes fundamentalists) cannot understand this because the concept is not intellectually graspable. Esotericists by contrast have no problems with religious formulas because the formulas aren’t to them absolute. Over the course of history then mysticism has had a two-sidedness: it can effectively support dogmas or it can undermine them. Esotericists have suffered for this and in most religions have not just been excommunicated but often they are thrown into prison or even burned at the stake." ~ From the article (link below)


www.kyrie.com/inner/mysticism/all_will_b...




Whether one is an esotericist or an exotericist, both start out assuming the thing they are trying to prove or experience. There is nothing meritocratic in this, and probably the reason why 'mysticism' has never achieved very much and is always vague and nebulous.


On the other hand, if we're talking about spirituality, or the spiritual, I see it as being the relationship between one's consciousness and the cosmos. It is not the study of the cosmos - that's science - but how one relates to it.




I'm not sure that there's anything to prove within mysticism. There's the direct contact (experience) with the Divine or Ultimate Reality thing but even that is subjective. Being present or attentive to the miracle of the present is a worthwhile and transformative practice in my opinion.The unitive state, the not one, not two is a sort of thing that can only be expressed one like pointing at the moon. Sometimes these things are expressed as poems and make very good pointers.


I like how you put it... "I see it as being the relationship between one's consciousness and the cosmos." Very well said!


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2 years ago  ::  Jul 03, 2012 - 12:49PM #45
williejhonlo
Posts: 3,710

Jul 1, 2012 -- 12:25PM, BodhiBick wrote:


For anyone interested...


"Mystics are esotericists; that is why they are often criticised as being anti-irrational and arrogantly “enlightened”. Exotericists (includes fundamentalists) cannot understand this because the concept is not intellectually graspable. Esotericists by contrast have no problems with religious formulas because the formulas aren’t to them absolute. Over the course of history then mysticism has had a two-sidedness: it can effectively support dogmas or it can undermine them. Esotericists have suffered for this and in most religions have not just been excommunicated but often they are thrown into prison or even burned at the stake." ~ From the article (link below)


www.kyrie.com/inner/mysticism/all_will_b...



This is something I got from the article, "esotericism is spirituality oriented towards experience and sees as it's goal the meaning of religion. The esotericist is not a person with some sort of elitist consciousness but someone who has started on the path to experience the divine in himself or herself and in all things."


There is also a verse in the Isopanisad that says basically the same thing: A person who sees everything in relation to the supreme Lord, and sees all living entities as his parts and parcels, and who sees the supreme Lord within everything, never hates anything, nor any being.


IMHO a mystic is someone who has developed a vision that culminates in him or her seeing everything in oneness and love.

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2 years ago  ::  Jul 03, 2012 - 5:05PM #46
Namchuck
Posts: 11,661

Williejhonlo wrote:


This is something I got from the article, "esotericism is spirituality oriented towards experience and sees as it's goal the meaning of religion. The esotericist is not a person with some sort of elitist consciousness but someone who has started on the path to experience the divine in himself or herself and in all things."


There is also a verse in the Isopanisad that says basically the same thing: A person who sees everything in relation to the supreme Lord, and sees all living entities as his parts and parcels, and who sees the supreme Lord within everything, never hates anything, nor any being.


IMHO a mystic is someone who has developed a vision that culminates in him or her seeing everything in oneness and love.


The experience of the person "who sees everything in relation to the supreme Lord..." is  conditioned by his/her initial assumption, the assumption that there is a "supreme Lord".


And everyone wants to prove the truth of their belief (assumption) through experience, but the belief (assumption) conditions the experience. Hence the vast variety of inconsistent and contradictory testimony that issues forth from such experience.


Does one have to embrace unjustified assumptions in order to adopt a perspective where everything is seen in "oneness and love"?

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2 years ago  ::  Jul 03, 2012 - 9:36PM #47
BodhiBick
Posts: 78

Jul 3, 2012 -- 12:49PM, williejhonlo wrote:


Jul 1, 2012 -- 12:25PM, BodhiBick wrote:


For anyone interested...


"Mystics are esotericists; that is why they are often criticised as being anti-irrational and arrogantly “enlightened”. Exotericists (includes fundamentalists) cannot understand this because the concept is not intellectually graspable. Esotericists by contrast have no problems with religious formulas because the formulas aren’t to them absolute. Over the course of history then mysticism has had a two-sidedness: it can effectively support dogmas or it can undermine them. Esotericists have suffered for this and in most religions have not just been excommunicated but often they are thrown into prison or even burned at the stake." ~ From the article (link below)


www.kyrie.com/inner/mysticism/all_will_b...



This is something I got from the article, "esotericism is spirituality oriented towards experience and sees as it's goal the meaning of religion. The esotericist is not a person with some sort of elitist consciousness but someone who has started on the path to experience the divine in himself or herself and in all things."


There is also a verse in the Isopanisad that says basically the same thing: A person who sees everything in relation to the supreme Lord, and sees all living entities as his parts and parcels, and who sees the supreme Lord within everything, never hates anything, nor any being.


IMHO a mystic is someone who has developed a vision that culminates in him or her seeing everything in oneness and love.




"someone who has started on the path to experience the divine in himself or herself and in all things."


Now the thought of experiencing the divine in oneself and in all things is quite a developmental change from considering the divine as something separate to considering the divine as indwelling. For those within the context of the mindset of the divine and an inner divine nature, an inner transformation occurs of waking up to this divine nature within. For many, the ideas and concepts once held about the divine change and are even dropped to open up for the new wine skins so to speak in the inner person. Many ideas/beliefs which were held onto tightly concerning the divine are let go of allowing an openness for transformation. Dropping even the notion of God becomes a freeing and liberating occasion.


I believe this comes close to Meister Eckhart's idea of dropping all thoughts even about God... allowing God to be God without our preconceived notions and conditioning to smudge or cloud our minds concerning God.


Some years ago, I played music in various churches for services etc. Each place I went to would always make opportunity to tell me that they had the correct teachings and that the others didn't. It didn't take long for this to seem pathetic and after some years of this, I happily came to the conclusion that they were all wrong about anything concerning God. I also happily came to this conclusion about myself as well. It was and is very liberating!


Metta!

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2 years ago  ::  Jul 03, 2012 - 11:02PM #48
Namchuck
Posts: 11,661

Jul 3, 2012 -- 9:36PM, BodhiBick wrote:



I believe this comes close to Meister Eckhart's idea of dropping all thoughts even about God... allowing God to be God without our preconceived notions and conditioning to smudge or cloud our minds concerning God.


Some years ago, I played music in various churches for services etc. Each place I went to would always make opportunity to tell me that they had the correct teachings and that the others didn't. It didn't take long for this to seem pathetic and after some years of this, I happily came to the conclusion that they were all wrong about anything concerning God. I also happily came to this conclusion about myself as well. It was and is very liberating!


Something about all of this has always sounded double-tongued to me, even disingenuous. 


We apparently can come to the conclusion that "they are all wrong about anything concerning God" except, that is, their assumption of God.


But why make the assumption of God in the first place?

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2 years ago  ::  Jul 04, 2012 - 8:14AM #49
BodhiBick
Posts: 78

Jul 3, 2012 -- 11:02PM, Namchuck wrote:


Jul 3, 2012 -- 9:36PM, BodhiBick wrote:



I believe this comes close to Meister Eckhart's idea of dropping all thoughts even about God... allowing God to be God without our preconceived notions and conditioning to smudge or cloud our minds concerning God.


Some years ago, I played music in various churches for services etc. Each place I went to would always make opportunity to tell me that they had the correct teachings and that the others didn't. It didn't take long for this to seem pathetic and after some years of this, I happily came to the conclusion that they were all wrong about anything concerning God. I also happily came to this conclusion about myself as well. It was and is very liberating!


Something about all of this has always sounded double-tongued to me, even disingenuous. 


We apparently can come to the conclusion that "they are all wrong about anything concerning God" except, that is, their assumption of God.


But why make the assumption of God in the first place?




I'm sorry about the appearance of sounding double-tongued or disingenuous. Unfortunately, one is vulnerable to others judgements when being honest about life experiences and the thought life and faith. Most seem to have opinions about all of this. Perhaps I should keep my mouth shut.


The assumption of God is conditioning. Being raised in a missionary home, the notion of God was a given in my formative years and a part of my psyche. I go back and forth with the notion of God. Either way, I'm Ok. I can communicate and relate with or without the notion of God. There... more double talk, double talk. Elephant talk... it's only talk!


www.youtube.com/watch?v=t3DppaXz4-o


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2 years ago  ::  Jul 04, 2012 - 12:34PM #50
williejhonlo
Posts: 3,710

Jul 3, 2012 -- 9:36PM, BodhiBick wrote:


Jul 3, 2012 -- 12:49PM, williejhonlo wrote:


Jul 1, 2012 -- 12:25PM, BodhiBick wrote:


For anyone interested...


"Mystics are esotericists; that is why they are often criticised as being anti-irrational and arrogantly “enlightened”. Exotericists (includes fundamentalists) cannot understand this because the concept is not intellectually graspable. Esotericists by contrast have no problems with religious formulas because the formulas aren’t to them absolute. Over the course of history then mysticism has had a two-sidedness: it can effectively support dogmas or it can undermine them. Esotericists have suffered for this and in most religions have not just been excommunicated but often they are thrown into prison or even burned at the stake." ~ From the article (link below)


www.kyrie.com/inner/mysticism/all_will_b...



This is something I got from the article, "esotericism is spirituality oriented towards experience and sees as it's goal the meaning of religion. The esotericist is not a person with some sort of elitist consciousness but someone who has started on the path to experience the divine in himself or herself and in all things."


There is also a verse in the Isopanisad that says basically the same thing: A person who sees everything in relation to the supreme Lord, and sees all living entities as his parts and parcels, and who sees the supreme Lord within everything, never hates anything, nor any being.


IMHO a mystic is someone who has developed a vision that culminates in him or her seeing everything in oneness and love.




"someone who has started on the path to experience the divine in himself or herself and in all things."


Now the thought of experiencing the divine in oneself and in all things is quite a developmental change from considering the divine as something separate to considering the divine as indwelling. For those within the context of the mindset of the divine and an inner divine nature, an inner transformation occurs of waking up to this divine nature within. For many, the ideas and concepts once held about the divine change and are even dropped to open up for the new wine skins so to speak in the inner person. Many ideas/beliefs which were held onto tightly concerning the divine are let go of allowing an openness for transformation. Dropping even the notion of God becomes a freeing and liberating occasion.


I believe this comes close to Meister Eckhart's idea of dropping all thoughts even about God... allowing God to be God without our preconceived notions and conditioning to smudge or cloud our minds concerning God.


Some years ago, I played music in various churches for services etc. Each place I went to would always make opportunity to tell me that they had the correct teachings and that the others didn't. It didn't take long for this to seem pathetic and after some years of this, I happily came to the conclusion that they were all wrong about anything concerning God. I also happily came to this conclusion about myself as well. It was and is very liberating!


Metta!



Whatever the notion, whatever it be of pantheism or panentheism if it culminates in the experience of love the mystic believes that he or she has achieved the meaning of religion.

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