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2 years ago  ::  Jun 20, 2012 - 7:37PM #21
BodhiBick
Posts: 78

Jun 20, 2012 -- 1:52AM, williejhonlo wrote:


Jun 19, 2012 -- 8:26PM, BodhiBick wrote:


Jun 19, 2012 -- 6:53PM, Seefan wrote:


Jun 19, 2012 -- 6:28PM, BodhiBick wrote:

It's not only the Baha'i which holds that God is beyond mind, imagination, concepts, theologies, doctrines and the lot. Mystics in pretty much all of the traditions hold to this as well including Christian Mystics. Nevertheless, many hold to a panentheistic view of God (including Christian Mystics). To some, the notion of buying into the illusion of separation from God is what is known as the "original sin" from the story in the Garden.


And we've got to get back to the Garden... 


www.youtube.com/watch?v=TrWNTqbLFFE


But then... why search for something we already have?


Where isn't God present? I haven't been able to find that place to date.


Metta! 



You mis-understand!  I certainly do not buy into 'original sin' (we are created pure with much potential).  Nor do I buy into a separation from God.  He is closer to us then our life vein.  We are told that God will never leave us alone.  He sends Messengers at the beginning of every age in human development to instruct humanity and instill into creation a fresh supply (so to speak) of His energy and grace through His divine Will ...


As to "And we've got to get ourselves back to the garden" it is my understanding that this is a metaphor for nearness to God attained through following His teachings as it applies to the age in which we are born!  Maybe this is the state we are born in and the reason Jesus says that we need to become as children ...


However I like the part "Well maybe it is just the time of year, Or maybe it's the time of man. I don't know who I am ... 


Not knowing who I am causes us to look for meaning in all kinds of places thinking we know the answers when we probably don't even know the questions to ask!  We find pleasure and think it must be truth ....


later,




Oh good! I always enjoy the mis-understanding part! And I'm relieved that you're not buying into the original sin thing (chuckle) or the whole notion of separation from God monster. 


After my long journey of thinking of I knew which kept evolving and changing, I was happy to throw it all away for silence and Unknowing. 


www.youtube.com/watch?v=6bVnLRJ7u6M


www.youtube.com/watch?v=83e-RWzljP8


www.youtube.com/watch?v=SDgJp822aR4



Thanks for the videos, the thomas Keating video was nice, as well as the first one.




Thanks Willie. I've been a part of Keating's gang of Contem'platives now for the past 15 years or something in that space of time. I've also been interested in gleening from the mystics from various traditions including Sufi, Buddhism, Hinduism, Native American etc... 


Peace!


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2 years ago  ::  Jun 21, 2012 - 3:36AM #22
Namchuck
Posts: 11,349


williejhonlo: "True, the rays  emanating from the sun are not the sun but are diffusions of energy emanating from the sun,since their source is only the sun makes the rays one with but different from there source ( the sun ).


You don't know what you're talking about, williejhonlo. Please explain to me how the sun's diffused energy, say in the form of photons, is somehow different from the sun? 


You could say they share the same nature as being heat and light, but are different in their quantity of heat and light.


Thermodynamics is not your thing, huh, willie? One really shouldn't pontificate upon a subject one obviously knows very little about.


IMHO I believe that God is not something that can be completely known,and he is something that cannot be completely unknown, if we attribute qualities to him such as emanator, source, maintainer, then is he in a sense knowable by his qualities IMHO."


One can attribute anything one likes to a hypothetical being. Who is going to prove you wrong? The thing is, if the hypothesis of God is simply a vague statement, it can be provisionally rejected as silly and unnecessary. If, on the other hand, it is meant as a relatively precise statement about the physical world, then we can investigate God's existence with the well-established hypothetical-deductive method. How do we do that? By enumerating the supposed attributes of such a God and treating them as testable hypotheses.


Of course, attributing "emanator", "source", and "maintainer" (these things are not 'attributes') to some wholly imaginary deity is a complete fudge and cop out. How do you know that there is even such a being, let alone that it is any of these things? You don't, and both you and I know it. There is nothing about the universe that even suggests that it requires a "maintainer", nor that its "source" is the product of some "emanator". These are the sorts of elaborate, but unjustified, assumptions that believers and fantasists make in the face of the fact that they actually have nothing of genuine value to say about much at all. 





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2 years ago  ::  Jun 21, 2012 - 4:19AM #23
Namchuck
Posts: 11,349

Jun 20, 2012 -- 7:43AM, Seefan wrote:


It is my understanding that God is an Unknowable Essence however we are made in His likeness (His qualities) and are able to tap into the power contained within these attributes only to the degree that it is reflected through those Manifestations of God that appear at the beginning of each age.  It is They who infuse another measure of spiritual energy and potential into all created things!  The knowledge of these Manifestations of God is the limit any mystic can reach, although it may appear to them to be a direct contact with God!  Again imho ...


How can you say, Seefan, that it is your "understanding" that God is an "Unknowable Essence"!?


That is a mere belief, not an understanding. Do you even know what the word 'understanding' means or implies? It seems to me that you don't.


Moreover, how do you know that God is an "Unknowable Essence"? Please, explain the nature of the epistemology that could lead one to such an 'understanding'?


Along with another raft of elaborate but insupportable assertions - something that pseudo-mystics are well-known for, like that business unsubstantiated by any historical evidence that there are "Ages" in which God supposedly manifests himself - you even make claim to omniscience in pontificating about the limitations of the mystic "reach" in respect to the supposed deity!


It is just these very sort of claims that both you and williejhonlo indulge in that convinces me that mysticism is arrant nonsense, or that, alternatively, its modern proponents are simply pretenders (like those weekend hippies one reads about from the sixties) whose credulity is such that their bull**** filters have completely ceased to function.


When one reads those who perhaps qualify as real 'mystics' (Lao-tzu, Nagarjuna, Krishnamurti, Prajnanpad, and the sages of virtually all countries, languages, and traditions), one notices immediately that they viewed these things as not a matter of words, but of silence:


'He who knows, does not speak. He who speaks, does not know'. - Lao Tzu


One can't get the psuedo-mystics to stop speaking! They're full of beliefs, grand assumptions, and pretence to knowledge.




 



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2 years ago  ::  Jun 21, 2012 - 7:55AM #24
Seefan
Posts: 3,884

Jun 21, 2012 -- 4:19AM, Namchuck wrote:


Jun 20, 2012 -- 7:43AM, Seefan wrote:


It is my understanding that God is an Unknowable Essence however we are made in His likeness (His qualities) and are able to tap into the power contained within these attributes only to the degree that it is reflected through those Manifestations of God that appear at the beginning of each age.  It is They who infuse another measure of spiritual energy and potential into all created things!  The knowledge of these Manifestations of God is the limit any mystic can reach, although it may appear to them to be a direct contact with God!  Again imho ...


How can you say, Seefan, that it is your "understanding" that God is an "Unknowable Essence"!?


That is a mere belief, not an understanding. Do you even know what the word 'understanding' means or implies? It seems to me that you don't.


Moreover, how do you know that God is an "Unknowable Essence"? Please, explain the nature of the epistemology that could lead one to such an 'understanding'?


Along with another raft of elaborate but insupportable assertions - something that pseudo-mystics are well-known for, like that business unsubstantiated by any historical evidence that there are "Ages" in which God supposedly manifests himself - you even make claim to omniscience in pontificating about the limitations of the mystic "reach" in respect to the supposed deity!


It is just these very sort of claims that both you and williejhonlo indulge in that convinces me that mysticism is arrant nonsense, or that, alternatively, its modern proponents are simply pretenders (like those weekend hippies one reads about from the sixties) whose credulity is such that their bull**** filters have completely ceased to function.


When one reads those who perhaps qualify as real 'mystics' (Lao-tzu, Nagarjuna, Krishnamurti, Prajnanpad, and the sages of virtually all countries, languages, and traditions), one notices immediately that they viewed these things as not a matter of words, but of silence:


'He who knows, does not speak. He who speaks, does not know'. - Lao Tzu


One can't get the psuedo-mystics to stop speaking! They're full of beliefs, grand assumptions, and pretence to knowledge. 




Namchuck you certainly go on !  Just an observation for what it's worth - Maybe the advice offered by Lao Tzu was a freudian slip on your part! 


Just a thought or maybe an understanding??  Ah!  What do I know? 


However I do feel justified that what I've expressed is my understanding from what I've found and read in the written text of the Baha'i Faith and heard from talks given on same.  It resonates with me ...


 

Today the one overriding need is unity and harmony among the beloved of the Lord, for they should have among them but one heart and soul and should, so far as in them lieth, unitedly withstand the hostility of all the peoples of the world ... (Baha'i Writings)
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 21, 2012 - 8:33PM #25
BodhiBick
Posts: 78

"In a mind clear as still water,
even the waves, breaking,
are reflecting its light."




Dogen Zenji (1200 - 1253)



"Enlightenment is intimacy with all things."




Dogen Zenji (1200 - 1253)



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2 years ago  ::  Jun 22, 2012 - 5:51PM #26
BodhiBick
Posts: 78

I receive these Daily OM's in my email box daily and I thought I'd pass this one along...


Daily OM


Saying Yes to the universe opens the gate to receiving what your soul really wants.



The hardest thing about saying yes to the universe is that it means accepting everything life puts in front of us. Most of us have a habit of going through our days saying no to the things we don’t like and yes to the things we do, and yet, everything we encounter is our life. We may be afraid that if we say yes to the things we don’t like, we will be stuck with them forever, but really, it is only through acknowledging the existence of what’s not working for us that we can begin the process of change. So saying yes doesn’t mean indiscriminately accepting things that don’t work for us. It means conversing with the universe, and starting the conversation with a very powerful word—yes.

When we say yes to the universe, we enter into a state of trust that whatever our situation is, we can work with it. We express confidence in ourselves, and the universe, and we also express a willingness to learn from whatever comes our way, rather than running and hiding when we don’t like what we see. The question we might ask ourselves is what it will take for us to get to the point of saying yes. For some of us, it takes coming up against something we can’t ignore, escape, or deny, and so we are left no choice but to say yes. For others, it just seems a natural progression of events that leads us to making the decision to say yes to life.

The first step to saying yes is realizing that in the end it is so much easier than the alternative. Once we understand this, we can begin examining the moments when we resist what is happening, and experiment with occasionally saying yes instead. It might be scary at first, and even painful at times, but if we continue to say yes to every moment through the process, we will discover the joy of being in a positive conversation with a force much bigger than ourselves.

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 23, 2012 - 2:11AM #27
williejhonlo
Posts: 3,444

Jun 22, 2012 -- 5:51PM, BodhiBick wrote:


I receive these Daily OM's in my email box daily and I thought I'd pass this one along...


Daily OM


Saying Yes to the universe opens the gate to receiving what your soul really wants.



The hardest thing about saying yes to the universe is that it means accepting everything life puts in front of us. Most of us have a habit of going through our days saying no to the things we don’t like and yes to the things we do, and yet, everything we encounter is our life. We may be afraid that if we say yes to the things we don’t like, we will be stuck with them forever, but really, it is only through acknowledging the existence of what’s not working for us that we can begin the process of change. So saying yes doesn’t mean indiscriminately accepting things that don’t work for us. It means conversing with the universe, and starting the conversation with a very powerful word—yes.

When we say yes to the universe, we enter into a state of trust that whatever our situation is, we can work with it. We express confidence in ourselves, and the universe, and we also express a willingness to learn from whatever comes our way, rather than running and hiding when we don’t like what we see. The question we might ask ourselves is what it will take for us to get to the point of saying yes. For some of us, it takes coming up against something we can’t ignore, escape, or deny, and so we are left no choice but to say yes. For others, it just seems a natural progression of events that leads us to making the decision to say yes to life.

The first step to saying yes is realizing that in the end it is so much easier than the alternative. Once we understand this, we can begin examining the moments when we resist what is happening, and experiment with occasionally saying yes instead. It might be scary at first, and even painful at times, but if we continue to say yes to every moment through the process, we will discover the joy of being in a positive conversation with a force much bigger than ourselves.



IMHO like and dislike are  based on the pleasure principle. We love what gives us pleasure and we hate whatever gives us misery. Saying yes to the universe is just accepting that bad things happen and that we just have to persevere. Saying yes to the universe is in a sense acknowledging that it is making us stronger. The universe tells you something about yourself.

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 23, 2012 - 4:50AM #28
Namchuck
Posts: 11,349



Seefan: "Namchuck you certainly go on !"


Or, in other words, you have no coherent response.Undecided


 Just an observation for what it's worth - Maybe the advice offered by Lao Tzu was a freudian slip on your part! 


No, it wasn't a Freudian slip, Seefan, but a justified observation of your comic mysticism. I'm not the one advancing scores of baroque assumptions while pretending to omniscience.


Just a thought or maybe an understanding??  Ah!  What do I know? 


Well, it's apparent that you understand little, but you do believe a lot.


However I do feel justified that what I've expressed is my understanding from what I've found and read in the written text of the Baha'i Faith and heard from talks given on same.  It resonates with me ...


There isn't even a hint of understanding on your part, Seefan. If there was, surely it would be attended by at least some compelling evidence to back it up. It isn't, so it remains merely a belief apparently grounded on its capacity to make you 'feel good'.


 


 

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 23, 2012 - 4:36PM #29
Namchuck
Posts: 11,349

Jun 23, 2012 -- 2:11AM, williejhonlo wrote:



IMHO like and dislike are  based on the pleasure principle. We love what gives us pleasure and we hate whatever gives us misery. Saying yes to the universe is just accepting that bad things happen and that we just have to persevere. Saying yes to the universe is in a sense acknowledging that it is making us stronger. The universe tells you something about yourself.


Much of what you say above, williejhonlo, makes good sense, although I think the notion of "opening oneself to the universe" is simply overdone by many. Afterall, the universe is largely composed of deadly gases completely inimical to life, and there is little doubt that the universe is utterly indifferent to our existence.


This knowledge, though, as you suggest, can make us "stronger" in certain ways. It can help our species realise that, if we are going to make, it is going to be entirely up to us to achieve it.


Then again, while no help is going to come out of the sky, it could, inadvertently, bring our doom just as it did the dinosaurs.




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2 years ago  ::  Jun 24, 2012 - 10:32PM #30
BodhiBick
Posts: 78

Jun 23, 2012 -- 4:36PM, Namchuck wrote:


Jun 23, 2012 -- 2:11AM, williejhonlo wrote:



IMHO like and dislike are  based on the pleasure principle. We love what gives us pleasure and we hate whatever gives us misery. Saying yes to the universe is just accepting that bad things happen and that we just have to persevere. Saying yes to the universe is in a sense acknowledging that it is making us stronger. The universe tells you something about yourself.


Much of what you say above, williejhonlo, makes good sense, although I think the notion of "opening oneself to the universe" is simply overdone by many. Afterall, the universe is largely composed of deadly gases completely inimical to life, and there is little doubt that the universe is utterly indifferent to our existence.


This knowledge, though, as you suggest, can make us "stronger" in certain ways. It can help our species realise that, if we are going to make, it is going to be entirely up to us to achieve it.


Then again, while no help is going to come out of the sky, it could, inadvertently, bring our doom just as it did the dinosaurs.







While the rabbit is resting in the yard


The birds sing their songs


And the warm breeze touches my face


This is a wonderful moment!



Our doom wouldn't be such a bad thing... Most of us don't realize what we have and are dead already!


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