Jun 18, 2012 -- 8:59PM, Seefan wrote:

Jun 18, 2012 -- 8:00PM, BodhiBick wrote:

Jun 18, 2012 -- 2:09PM, Seefan wrote:

Jun 17, 2012 -- 7:04PM, Namchuck wrote:

As to "higher states of consciousness", that can be achieved with chemicals. The thing is, none of these so-called "higher states" point to anything outside of the brain, and certainly not to any sort of transcendental realm. 

Namchuck,

You just maybe right in some of what you say!  But yes 'Will' interesting links ...

I don't know about the actual value of chermicals but it seems to me that the human mind cannot experience anything outside of creation and God is outside of creation!  He is that which transcends creation!  As I see it, there is no such thing as direct contact with God!  But we can experience a higher consciousness within (within the brain for everything is felt through the brain) through meditating on spiritual concepts which brings us to a new and greater understanding of ourselves in relationship to the qualities attributed to the divine.  The purpose of religion in a sense is not to bring us closer to God but to bring us closer to and deepening our understanding of the qualities we attribute to God, the path we need to take to acquire these qualities as defined by religion 'in this day', and the process we are to adopt so we can learn how to apply.  I believe that's true mysticism - imho ... 

I appreciate the posts!

For some, it seems that all there is, is direct contact with God. Such is in the case of those within the PanENtheistic camps. It isn't dependent on our awareness of it. However, with this awareness in mind, I believe that transformative qualities are enhanced. I believe you are on to something with this purpose of deepening our understand of the qualities we attribute to God thing. I would also add... the cultivation of these qualities into our way of being.  

Metta! 

Thanks for your post!  And may you be showered with love and kindness as well ...
In reply I'd have to say that I'm not trying to step on the beliefs of other but if asked by a pantheistic what I thought I'd tell them that it is not my understanding nor do I believe it possible.  As a Painter cannot become a part of His painting, God, the Creator cannot become part of His creation, although He does influence and control it through His Divine Will ...

 

Where is the creation if it is not apart of God? It can't be external to him or beyond him if he is omniscient. As it is said in the isopanishad: The supreme personality of Godhead is perfect and complete, and because he is completely perfect, all emanations from him, such as this phenomenal world, are perfectly equipped as a complete whole. Whatever is produced of the complete whole is also complete by itself. And because he is the complete whole, even through so many complete units emanate from him, he remains the complete balance.

True, it is not apart of his essence, but it is his energy, thus making him it's energetic source.

Jun 19, 2012 -- 3:43PM, williejhonlo wrote:

 Where is the creation if it is not apart of God? It can't be external to him or beyond him if he is omniscient. As it is said in the isopanishad: The supreme personality of Godhead is perfect and complete, and because he is completely perfect, all emanations from him, such as this phenomenal world, are perfectly equipped as a complete whole. Whatever is produced of the complete whole is also complete by itself. And because he is the complete whole, even through so many complete units emanate from him, he remains the complete balance.

True, it is not apart of his essence, but it is his energy, thus making him it's energetic source.

Williejhonlo, I don't think I have a problem with this except icreation is in my understanding external to Him.  But yes God's energy, force, and power coming from His divine Will created creation and sustains it.  Without His continual bounty and grace it would not exist nor would it continual to exist.  Baha'u'llah, Prophet/Founder of the Baha'i Faith explains it simlar in that creation is an emanation from God in a 'similar' sense as the rays of the sun is an emanation from the sun.  The rays are not the sun and once it leaves the sun is not a part thereof but come from.  Nor can we travel back through this power (the rays) to its source - God.  God is an Unknowable Essence and will forever remain so - imho ...

Jun 19, 2012 -- 6:28PM, BodhiBick wrote:

It's not only the Baha'i which holds that God is beyond mind, imagination, concepts, theologies, doctrines and the lot. Mystics in pretty much all of the traditions hold to this as well including Christian Mystics. Nevertheless, many hold to a panentheistic view of God (including Christian Mystics). To some, the notion of buying into the illusion of separation from God is what is known as the "original sin" from the story in the Garden.

And we've got to get back to the Garden... 

www.youtube.com/watch?v=TrWNTqbLFFE

But then... why search for something we already have?

Where isn't God present? I haven't been able to find that place to date.

Metta! 

You mis-understand!  I certainly do not buy into 'original sin' (we are created pure with much potential).  Nor do I buy into a separation from God.  He is closer to us then our life vein.  We are told that God will never leave us alone.  He sends Messengers at the beginning of every age in human development to instruct humanity and instill into creation a fresh supply (so to speak) of His energy and grace through His divine Will ...

As to "And we've got to get ourselves back to the garden" it is my understanding that this is a metaphor for nearness to God attained through following His teachings as it applies to the age in which we are born!  Maybe this is the state we are born in and the reason Jesus says that we need to become as children ...

However I like the part "Well maybe it is just the time of year, Or maybe it's the time of man. I don't know who I am ... 

Not knowing who I am causes us to look for meaning in all kinds of places thinking we know the answers when we probably don't even know the questions to ask!  We find pleasure and think it must be truth ....

later,

Jun 19, 2012 -- 5:50PM, Seefan wrote:

Jun 19, 2012 -- 3:43PM, williejhonlo wrote:

 Where is the creation if it is not apart of God? It can't be external to him or beyond him if he is omniscient. As it is said in the isopanishad: The supreme personality of Godhead is perfect and complete, and because he is completely perfect, all emanations from him, such as this phenomenal world, are perfectly equipped as a complete whole. Whatever is produced of the complete whole is also complete by itself. And because he is the complete whole, even through so many complete units emanate from him, he remains the complete balance.

True, it is not apart of his essence, but it is his energy, thus making him it's energetic source.

Williejhonlo, I don't think I have a problem with this except icreation is in my understanding external to Him.  But yes God's energy, force, and power coming from His divine Will created creation and sustains it.  Without His continual bounty and grace it would not exist nor would it continual to exist.  Baha'u'llah, Prophet/Founder of the Baha'i Faith explains it simlar in that creation is an emanation from God in a 'similar' sense as the rays of the sun is an emanation from the sun.  The rays are not the sun and once it leaves the sun is not a part thereof but come from.  Nor can we travel back through this power (the rays) to its source - God.  God is an Unknowable Essence and will forever remain so - imho ...

 

 

True, the rays  emanating from the sun are not the sun but are diffusions of energy emanating from the sun,since their source is only the sun makes the rays one with but different from there source ( the sun ). You could say they share the same nature as being heat and light, but are different in their quantity of heat and light. IMHO I believe that God is not something that can be completely known,and he is something that cannot be completely unknown, if we attribute qualities to him such as emanator, source, maintainer, then is he in a sense knowable by his qualities IMHO.

Jun 19, 2012 -- 2:18PM, Seefan wrote:

No argument here! Nor will you ever find evidence of God outside of the universe. We can't venture that way!

Then why advance such an elaborate assumption in the first place?

And isn't it just so convenient for the believer that his hypothetical God is safely confined - or so he believes - "outside of the universe", secure from all kinds of rational and critical enquiry? Let's not even bother to ask how he knows such a thing. He doesn't, he's simply making it up.  

Fairies, goblins and the like are physical while God is far, far beyond that!

Can't you see what you are doing, Seefan? You are postulating another baroque assumption - God is beyond the physical - that you cannot support with a grain of evidence! Who knows if there is God that is "far beyond that (the physical)"?

While it may be necessary to posit certain assumptions in order to explore reality, surely wisdom would dictate that one keep them to a minimum and that they, at least, should have some justification in evidence, and not just wishful thinking. 

And I'm not here to try and prove I'm right about the difference I see in your analogy but just to point out my belief in case you were not aware ... 

 He is that which transcends creation!

You are saying nothing here, Seefan. It's a postulation without any real content. It is mere verbalization posturing as knowledge, something that is, in truth, only a little different from lying. One shouldn't assert what one doesn't know, which is the first principle of genuine spirituality.

You maybe right since nothing can transcend creation except God it remains within belief to me and others who believe such ...

There you go again postulating something for which there is not an iota of evidence. People can believe what they want, but there are others more interested in true than in mere belief.

 

Again, you just maybe right. However it may also be that ingesting chemicals doesn't allow one to reach higher states of consciousness but to feel as if you have.

Maybe, and perhaps meditation and all that business is self-delusory as well. Whatever the case may be, no state of consciousness, high or low, points to anything outside of the brain.

Interesting question. I'd say a spiritual concept would be the idea of how one would develop to become a better person in developing relationship as opposted to one developing the ideas of how to become more successful in material gain (although spiritual concepts may come into play but for different reasons. ) ...

You might have explained the above more clearly, Seefan, consequently I'm still not sure just what you mean by "spiritual concept". A concept, no matter how refined, is still the collocation of neurons in a brain that is a very material organ. I think the whole business of opposing the 'material' with the 'spiritual' is bogus and something that sets up a false duality. Perhaps we could explore this more thoroughly?  

 

Yes the qualities should be sufficient when one knows where and why I have them.  It’s like me saying I was happy until I really found happiness then I knew happiness.  We think we know!

As soon as you think you are happy, you're not. Happiness is not a thought but a state of being.

  Again Namchuck, I am certainly not trying to change the way you think nor am I trying to justify what I believe but simply to answer your question.

Are you really saying that you cannot justify what you believe? If this is the case, then your belief is blind.

  It is asking why do I believe it is necessary to believe in God.  I don’t believe it is necessary to believe in God at all.  But I do believe for me that is what gives meaning to life!

Fine, but upon what is your belief grounded? It seems to me, and correct me if I am wrong, that it seems to amount to little more than an emotional commitment to a comforting idea. I certainly haven't a clue just what your epistemology amounts to. :(

  But I’m sure you’re thinking that no reason to believe and it isn’t!  I was brought up in a religion and as I got older I lost my belief because of the inconsistences within that belief system.  And I floundered between being an atheist and an agnostic.

  I guess mainly agnostic.  It got to a point where I felt I wasn’t going down the right path in life and wanted to change, become a better person.  The power within wasn’t there.

What!? Are you suggesting that the capacity to become a better person lies outside of human reach without some sort of belief in a hypothetical deity? The evidence against this is truly immense.  

  And until I used ‘spiritual’ guidance coupled with my own coming to believe in a God of my understanding, I wasn’t able to rise to the occasion.

Any sort of "spiritual guidance" that claims that man's ability to improve upon himself lies outside of him is a crock of nonsense. 

  That’s putting it simple and condensed, but until I became more aware of what you don’t see or believe, my life was stagnate and on a path of destruction that I seemed unable to prevent.

How can one become "aware of what you don't see or believe"? What is the nature of that awareness? Where does it originate? How is it mediated?

And I’m sure you can come up with lots of scientific reasons why I’m wrong but my experience speaks volumes!

I'm sorry, Seefan, but personal experience, no matter how abundant, is no guarantee against being dead wrong. People believe in all sorts of unjustified and contradictory things based on personal experience. It often even leads to the killing of others who profess different experiences.

The thing is, everyone wants to prove the truth of his belief through experience, but the belief conditions the experience. It is not that experience comes along to prove the belief, but that the belief begets the experience. This is so easily proven just by looking at the religions man has invented - and they are all invented. This is why the empirical and objective methods of science have been so successful. They are meritocratic, not dependent upon what people want to believe or wish was true. 

  So!  I guess for me it is NOT to do with the wisdom of love in one’s life or attaining those ‘qualities’ but where the power comes from to develop it that gives me reason to work towards those ends ...

And this is the sorry weakness of your belief. It is grounded in the heavily-conditioned and patently false Christian notion  - which you seem to have been, perhaps unconsciously, heavily influenced by...hence the feelings of incapacity you speak of above  - that man is incapable of improving himself without belief in some hypothetical God, invariably mediated through priests, guru's, and all manner of supposed "spiritual guides". This is why mystic-moochers rely so heavily upon what others have written, hence the referencing to long lists of books. 

This view inexorably leads to servitude while, at the same time, depriving its victims of their capacity to think for themselves. The cardinal sign of such intellectual and spiritual slavery echo's in terminology such as (becoming) "aware of what you don't see or believe" which, in turn, invariably leads to the postulation of elaborate assumptions unattended by a grain of evidence. Again, or so it seems to me, to be only a smidgen different from actually lying.

It is a sorry state which both undermines the intellect and man's capacity for real moral and spiritual growth.