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2 years ago  ::  Jun 13, 2012 - 11:57PM #1
BodhiBick
Posts: 78
Who are they and what are they about?

Here are some links below to start the conversation:

Sufi & Sufism
www.bmf.org/m/sufi/index.html

Rabbi David Cooper
rabbidavidcooper.com/mystical-wisdom-tea...

D.T Suzuki
www.bodysoulandspirit.net/mystical_exper...

The Christian Mystic Explained
christianmystics.com/basics/whatis.html

Of course, this is just scratching the surface. Please feel free to add more links and add conversations surrounding this topic. 

Metta! 
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 17, 2012 - 6:29PM #2
williejhonlo
Posts: 3,444

Jun 13, 2012 -- 11:57PM, BodhiBick wrote:

Who are they and what are they about?

Here are some links below to start the conversation:

Sufi & Sufism
www.bmf.org/m/sufi/index.html

Rabbi David Cooper
rabbidavidcooper.com/mystical-wisdom-tea...

D.T Suzuki
www.bodysoulandspirit.net/mystical_exper...

The Christian Mystic Explained
christianmystics.com/basics/whatis.html

Of course, this is just scratching the surface. Please feel free to add more links and add conversations surrounding this topic. 

Metta! 


Thanks for the links, they were all informative, they also I believe have something in common in that  they all delve into experiencing higher states of consciousness above the normal conscious state that we experience.

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 17, 2012 - 7:04PM #3
Namchuck
Posts: 11,258

williejhonlo: 



"Metta! [/quote]
Thanks for the links, they were all informative, they also I believe have something in common in that  they all delve into experiencing higher states of consciousness above the normal conscious state that we experience."



They have more in common than just that, williejhonlo, including a huge investment in vaguery.


As to "higher states of consciousness", that can be achieved with chemicals. The thing is, none of these so-called "higher states" point to anything outside of the brain, and certainly not to any sort of transcendental realm.

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 18, 2012 - 2:09PM #4
Seefan
Posts: 3,874

Jun 17, 2012 -- 7:04PM, Namchuck wrote:

As to "higher states of consciousness", that can be achieved with chemicals. The thing is, none of these so-called "higher states" point to anything outside of the brain, and certainly not to any sort of transcendental realm. 



Namchuck,


You just maybe right in some of what you say!  But yes 'Will' interesting links ...


I don't know about the actual value of chermicals but it seems to me that the human mind cannot experience anything outside of creation and God is outside of creation!  He is that which transcends creation!  As I see it, there is no such thing as direct contact with God!  But we can experience a higher consciousness within (within the brain for everything is felt through the brain) through meditating on spiritual concepts which brings us to a new and greater understanding of ourselves in relationship to the qualities attributed to the divine.  The purpose of religion in a sense is not to bring us closer to God but to bring us closer to and deepening our understanding of the qualities we attribute to God, the path we need to take to acquire these qualities as defined by religion 'in this day', and the process we are to adopt so we can learn how to apply.  I believe that's true mysticism - imho ...


 

Today the one overriding need is unity and harmony among the beloved of the Lord, for they should have among them but one heart and soul and should, so far as in them lieth, unitedly withstand the hostility of all the peoples of the world ... (Baha'i Writings)
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 18, 2012 - 8:00PM #5
BodhiBick
Posts: 78

Jun 18, 2012 -- 2:09PM, Seefan wrote:


Jun 17, 2012 -- 7:04PM, Namchuck wrote:

As to "higher states of consciousness", that can be achieved with chemicals. The thing is, none of these so-called "higher states" point to anything outside of the brain, and certainly not to any sort of transcendental realm. 



Namchuck,


You just maybe right in some of what you say!  But yes 'Will' interesting links ...


I don't know about the actual value of chermicals but it seems to me that the human mind cannot experience anything outside of creation and God is outside of creation!  He is that which transcends creation!  As I see it, there is no such thing as direct contact with God!  But we can experience a higher consciousness within (within the brain for everything is felt through the brain) through meditating on spiritual concepts which brings us to a new and greater understanding of ourselves in relationship to the qualities attributed to the divine.  The purpose of religion in a sense is not to bring us closer to God but to bring us closer to and deepening our understanding of the qualities we attribute to God, the path we need to take to acquire these qualities as defined by religion 'in this day', and the process we are to adopt so we can learn how to apply.  I believe that's true mysticism - imho ...


 




I appreciate the posts!


For some, it seems that all there is, is direct contact with God. Such is in the case of those within the PanENtheistic camps. It isn't dependent on our awareness of it. However, with this awareness in mind, I believe that transformative qualities are enhanced. I believe you are on to something with this purpose of deepening our understand of the qualities we attribute to God thing. I would also add... the cultivation of these qualities into our way of being.  


Metta!


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2 years ago  ::  Jun 18, 2012 - 8:59PM #6
Seefan
Posts: 3,874

Jun 18, 2012 -- 8:00PM, BodhiBick wrote:


Jun 18, 2012 -- 2:09PM, Seefan wrote:


Jun 17, 2012 -- 7:04PM, Namchuck wrote:

As to "higher states of consciousness", that can be achieved with chemicals. The thing is, none of these so-called "higher states" point to anything outside of the brain, and certainly not to any sort of transcendental realm. 



Namchuck,


You just maybe right in some of what you say!  But yes 'Will' interesting links ...


I don't know about the actual value of chermicals but it seems to me that the human mind cannot experience anything outside of creation and God is outside of creation!  He is that which transcends creation!  As I see it, there is no such thing as direct contact with God!  But we can experience a higher consciousness within (within the brain for everything is felt through the brain) through meditating on spiritual concepts which brings us to a new and greater understanding of ourselves in relationship to the qualities attributed to the divine.  The purpose of religion in a sense is not to bring us closer to God but to bring us closer to and deepening our understanding of the qualities we attribute to God, the path we need to take to acquire these qualities as defined by religion 'in this day', and the process we are to adopt so we can learn how to apply.  I believe that's true mysticism - imho ... 



I appreciate the posts!


For some, it seems that all there is, is direct contact with God. Such is in the case of those within the PanENtheistic camps. It isn't dependent on our awareness of it. However, with this awareness in mind, I believe that transformative qualities are enhanced. I believe you are on to something with this purpose of deepening our understand of the qualities we attribute to God thing. I would also add... the cultivation of these qualities into our way of being.  


Metta! 



Thanks for your post!  And may you be showered with love and kindness as well ...
In reply I'd have to say that I'm not trying to step on the beliefs of other but if asked by a pantheistic what I thought I'd tell them that it is not my understanding nor do I believe it possible.  As a Painter cannot become a part of His painting, God, the Creator cannot become part of His creation, although He does influence and control it through His Divine Will ...



 

Today the one overriding need is unity and harmony among the beloved of the Lord, for they should have among them but one heart and soul and should, so far as in them lieth, unitedly withstand the hostility of all the peoples of the world ... (Baha'i Writings)
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 19, 2012 - 12:16AM #7
BodhiBick
Posts: 78

Jun 18, 2012 -- 8:59PM, Seefan wrote:


Jun 18, 2012 -- 8:00PM, BodhiBick wrote:


Jun 18, 2012 -- 2:09PM, Seefan wrote:


Jun 17, 2012 -- 7:04PM, Namchuck wrote:

As to "higher states of consciousness", that can be achieved with chemicals. The thing is, none of these so-called "higher states" point to anything outside of the brain, and certainly not to any sort of transcendental realm. 



Namchuck,


You just maybe right in some of what you say!  But yes 'Will' interesting links ...


I don't know about the actual value of chermicals but it seems to me that the human mind cannot experience anything outside of creation and God is outside of creation!  He is that which transcends creation!  As I see it, there is no such thing as direct contact with God!  But we can experience a higher consciousness within (within the brain for everything is felt through the brain) through meditating on spiritual concepts which brings us to a new and greater understanding of ourselves in relationship to the qualities attributed to the divine.  The purpose of religion in a sense is not to bring us closer to God but to bring us closer to and deepening our understanding of the qualities we attribute to God, the path we need to take to acquire these qualities as defined by religion 'in this day', and the process we are to adopt so we can learn how to apply.  I believe that's true mysticism - imho ... 



I appreciate the posts!


For some, it seems that all there is, is direct contact with God. Such is in the case of those within the PanENtheistic camps. It isn't dependent on our awareness of it. However, with this awareness in mind, I believe that transformative qualities are enhanced. I believe you are on to something with this purpose of deepening our understand of the qualities we attribute to God thing. I would also add... the cultivation of these qualities into our way of being.  


Metta! 



Thanks for your post!  And may you be showered with love and kindness as well ...
In reply I'd have to say that I'm not trying to step on the beliefs of other but if asked by a pantheistic what I thought I'd tell them that it is not my understanding nor do I believe it possible.  As a Painter cannot become a part of His painting, God, the Creator cannot become part of His creation, although He does influence and control it through His Divine Will ...



 




For the panentheist, (not to be confused with pantheist) the Creator is seen to be within all of creation and yet also trandscending it (see below).


This link does a pretty good job describing panentheism and introducing it's application within various traditions.


en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panentheism


plato.stanford.edu/entries/panentheism/


Metta!

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 19, 2012 - 3:13AM #8
Namchuck
Posts: 11,258

Jun 18, 2012 -- 2:09PM, Seefan wrote:



You just maybe right in some of what you say!  But yes 'Will' interesting links ...


I don't know about the actual value of chermicals but it seems to me that the human mind cannot experience anything outside of creation and God is outside of creation.


While there is an abundance of empirical evidence that the brain is electro-chemical in its nature, there is no evidence that 'God' is "outside of creation", whatever that means. That is merely a belief that inhabits the same field as fairies, goblins, and other imaginary creatures.


 


 He is that which transcends creation!


Again, unless you have evidence to advance to substantiate such a baroque claim, it remains merely a belief, or verbalization without content.


  As I see it, there is no such thing as direct contact with God!  But we can experience a higher consciousness within (within the brain for everything is felt through the brain) through meditating on spiritual concepts which brings us to a new and greater understanding of ourselves in relationship to the qualities attributed to the divine.


Putting aside the unnecessary references to some sort of 'God', I'd agree with you that meditation of various sorts can lead to higher states of consciousness, just as imbibing certain chemicals can. 


Incidentally, what would you describe as a "spiritual concept", given that a genuine concept is an abstraction of a perceptual observation?


  The purpose of religion in a sense is not to bring us closer to God but to bring us closer to and deepening our understanding of the qualities we attribute to God, the path we need to take to acquire these qualities as defined by religion 'in this day', and the process we are to adopt so we can learn how to apply.  I believe that's true mysticism - imho ...


Why attribute those "qualities" to some imaginary being? Surely the 'qualities', whatever they may be, are sufficient in themselves? I can appreciate that true wisdom is love and that genuine virtue is doing good and living in joy without invoking some entity patently inspired by one's lack.


 





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2 years ago  ::  Jun 19, 2012 - 1:11PM #9
Seefan
Posts: 3,874

Jun 19, 2012 -- 12:16AM, BodhiBick wrote:

Jun 18, 2012 -- 8:59PM, Seefan wrote:


Jun 18, 2012 -- 8:00PM, BodhiBick wrote:

Jun 18, 2012 -- 2:09PM, Seefan wrote:


Jun 17, 2012 -- 7:04PM, Namchuck wrote:

As to "higher states of consciousness", that can be achieved with chemicals. The thing is, none of these so-called "higher states" point to anything outside of the brain, and certainly not to any sort of transcendental realm. 



Namchuck,


You just maybe right in some of what you say!  But yes 'Will' interesting links ...


I don't know about the actual value of chermicals but it seems to me that the human mind cannot experience anything outside of creation and God is outside of creation!  He is that which transcends creation!  As I see it, there is no such thing as direct contact with God!  But we can experience a higher consciousness within (within the brain for everything is felt through the brain) through meditating on spiritual concepts which brings us to a new and greater understanding of ourselves in relationship to the qualities attributed to the divine.  The purpose of religion in a sense is not to bring us closer to God but to bring us closer to and deepening our understanding of the qualities we attribute to God, the path we need to take to acquire these qualities as defined by religion 'in this day', and the process we are to adopt so we can learn how to apply.  I believe that's true mysticism - imho ... 



I appreciate the posts!


For some, it seems that all there is, is direct contact with God. Such is in the case of those within the PanENtheistic camps. It isn't dependent on our awareness of it. However, with this awareness in mind, I believe that transformative qualities are enhanced. I believe you are on to something with this purpose of deepening our understand of the qualities we attribute to God thing. I would also add... the cultivation of these qualities into our way of being.  


Metta! 



Thanks for your post!  And may you be showered with love and kindness as well ...
In reply I'd have to say that I'm not trying to step on the beliefs of other but if asked by a pantheistic what I thought I'd tell them that it is not my understanding nor do I believe it possible.  As a Painter cannot become a part of His painting, God, the Creator cannot become part of His creation, although He does influence and control it through His Divine Will ...



 




For the panentheist, (not to be confused with pantheist) the Creator is seen to be within all of creation and yet also trandscending it (see below).


This link does a pretty good job describing panentheism and introducing it's application within various traditions.


en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panentheism


plato.stanford.edu/entries/panentheism/


Metta!





Thanks for the sites and the clarification.  It is the Baha'i belief that God is an Unknowable Essence and beyond the understanding of the keenest and most developed minds to comprehend.  Creation came into being through God's divine Will (also know as the Word of God).  The divine Will is separate from and is not the Essence of God and therefore the universe is not a part of God. 


 

Today the one overriding need is unity and harmony among the beloved of the Lord, for they should have among them but one heart and soul and should, so far as in them lieth, unitedly withstand the hostility of all the peoples of the world ... (Baha'i Writings)
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 19, 2012 - 2:18PM #10
Seefan
Posts: 3,874

Jun 19, 2012 -- 3:13AM, Namchuck wrote:


Jun 18, 2012 -- 2:09PM, Seefan wrote:



You just maybe right in some of what you say!  But yes 'Will' interesting links ...


I don't know about the actual value of chermicals but it seems to me that the human mind cannot experience anything outside of creation and God is outside of creation.


While there is an abundance of empirical evidence that the brain is electro-chemical in its nature, there is no evidence that 'God' is "outside of creation", whatever that means.


No argument here! Nor will you ever find evidence of God outside of the universe. We can't venture that way!


That is merely a belief that inhabits the same field as fairies, goblins, and other imaginary creatures.


Fairies, goblins and the like are physical while God is far, far beyond that! And I'm not here to try and prove I'm right about the difference I see in your analogy but just to point out my belief in case you were not aware ... 


 He is that which transcends creation!


Again, unless you have evidence to advance to substantiate such a baroque claim, it remains merely a belief, or verbalization without content.


You maybe right since nothing can transcend creation except God it remains within belief to me and others who believe such ...



  As I see it, there is no such thing as direct contact with God!  But we can experience a higher consciousness within (within the brain for everything is felt through the brain) through meditating on spiritual concepts which brings us to a new and greater understanding of ourselves in relationship to the qualities attributed to the divine.


Putting aside the unnecessary references to some sort of 'God', I'd agree with you that meditation of various sorts can lead to higher states of consciousness, just as imbibing certain chemicals can. 



Again, you just maybe right. However it may also be that ingesting chemicals doesn't allow one to reach higher states of consciousness but to feel as if you have.



Incidentally, what would you describe as a "spiritual concept", given that a genuine concept is an abstraction of a perceptual observation?


Interesting question. I'd say a spiritual concept would be the idea of how one would develop to become a better person in developing relationship as opposted to one developing the ideas of how to become more successful in material gain (although spiritual concepts may come into play but for different reasons. ) ...




 The purpose of religion in a sense is not to bring us closer to God but to bring us closer to and deepening our understanding of the qualities we attribute to God, the path we need to take to acquire these qualities as defined by religion 'in this day', and the process we are to adopt so we can learn how to apply.  I believe that's true mysticism - imho ...


Why attribute those "qualities" to some imaginary being? Surely the 'qualities', whatever they may be, are sufficient in themselves? I can appreciate that true wisdom is love and that genuine virtue is doing good and living in joy without invoking some entity patently inspired by one's lack.


Yes the qualities should be sufficient when one knows where and why I have them.  It’s like me saying I was happy until I really found happiness then I knew happiness.  We think we know!  Again Namchuck, I am certainly not trying to change the way you think nor am I trying to justify what I believe but simply to answer your question.  It is asking why do I believe it is necessary to believe in God.  I don’t believe it is necessary to believe in God at all.  But I do believe for me that is what gives meaning to life!  But I’m sure you’re thinking that no reason to believe and it isn’t!  I was brought up in a religion and as I got older I lost my belief because of the inconsistences within that belief system.  And I floundered between being an atheist and an agnostic.  I guess mainly agnostic.  It got to a point where I felt I wasn’t going down the right path in life and wanted to change, become a better person.  The power within wasn’t there.  And until I used ‘spiritual’ guidance coupled with my own coming to believe in a God of my understanding, I wasn’t able to rise to the occasion.  That’s putting it simple and condensed, but until I became more aware of what you don’t see or believe, my life was stagnate and on a path of destruction that I seemed unable to prevent. And I’m sure you can come up with lots of scientific reasons why I’m wrong but my experience speaks volumes!  So!  I guess for me it is NOT to do with the wisdom of love in one’s life or attaining those ‘qualities’ but where the power comes from to develop it that gives me reason to work towards those ends ...










Today the one overriding need is unity and harmony among the beloved of the Lord, for they should have among them but one heart and soul and should, so far as in them lieth, unitedly withstand the hostility of all the peoples of the world ... (Baha'i Writings)
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