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3 years ago  ::  Mar 07, 2012 - 4:50PM #1
Erey
Posts: 18,690
For a few years now I have been interested in Mysticism as I understand it, the experiencing of God both intuitively and with standard six senses.  I don't see much on this board that covers this because this just seems to be a New Age board.  I guess we all have different understandings of what is Mysticism?

Recently through Netflix I saw a movie movies.netflix.com/WiMovie/The_Taqwacore... The Taqwacores which seemed to me to cover young muslim mystics.   These goofy kids were reaching out and doing thier best to understand God.  They were very flawed in all this but they were reaching, with passion and hope.  It touched me and I thought this is an example of Mysticism.  Have any of you seen this before?

I also love this book by Tessa Bieoleki called Wild at Heart which discusses the christian mystics which is really just the saints.  She discusses what it is to be a christian mystic.   Have any of you heard of this book?
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3 years ago  ::  Mar 08, 2012 - 2:59AM #2
Namchuck
Posts: 11,639

Mar 7, 2012 -- 4:50PM, Erey wrote:

For a few years now I have been interested in Mysticism as I understand it, the experiencing of God both intuitively and with standard six senses.  I don't see much on this board that covers this because this just seems to be a New Age board.  I guess we all have different understandings of what is Mysticism?

Recently through Netflix I saw a movie movies.netflix.com/WiMovie/The_Taqwacore... The Taqwacores which seemed to me to cover young muslim mystics.   These goofy kids were reaching out and doing thier best to understand God.  They were very flawed in all this but they were reaching, with passion and hope.  It touched me and I thought this is an example of Mysticism.  Have any of you seen this before?

I also love this book by Tessa Bieoleki called Wild at Heart which discusses the christian mystics which is really just the saints.  She discusses what it is to be a christian mystic.   Have any of you heard of this book?




I've read it. It is a good book as far as that goes.


The thing is, aside from the assumption of God, we now have far better explantions for the so-called 'mystic experience' coming out of both psychology and the cognitive sciences.


Like I've said elsewhere, everyone wants to prove the truth of his or her belief through experience, but the belief conditions the experience (just as culture invariably conditions a persons religious preference). It is not that the experience comes along to prove the belief, but that the belief begets the experience. Hence, devout Catholics experience the 'Virgin' or one of the 'Saints', Hindu's experience Brahmah or one of his supposed manifestations, zealous Baptists see Jesus in a muffin, and so on. I have even read of devout communists having ecstatic experiences with one or another of Communisms long-dead founders.

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3 years ago  ::  Mar 09, 2012 - 4:36PM #3
Erey
Posts: 18,690

Mar 8, 2012 -- 2:59AM, Namchuck wrote:


Mar 7, 2012 -- 4:50PM, Erey wrote:

For a few years now I have been interested in Mysticism as I understand it, the experiencing of God both intuitively and with standard six senses.  I don't see much on this board that covers this because this just seems to be a New Age board.  I guess we all have different understandings of what is Mysticism?

Recently through Netflix I saw a movie movies.netflix.com/WiMovie/The_Taqwacore... The Taqwacores which seemed to me to cover young muslim mystics.   These goofy kids were reaching out and doing thier best to understand God.  They were very flawed in all this but they were reaching, with passion and hope.  It touched me and I thought this is an example of Mysticism.  Have any of you seen this before?

I also love this book by Tessa Bieoleki called Wild at Heart which discusses the christian mystics which is really just the saints.  She discusses what it is to be a christian mystic.   Have any of you heard of this book?




I've read it. It is a good book as far as that goes.


The thing is, aside from the assumption of God, we now have far better explantions for the so-called 'mystic experience' coming out of both psychology and the cognitive sciences.


Like I've said elsewhere, everyone wants to prove the truth of his or her belief through experience, but the belief conditions the experience (just as culture invariably conditions a persons religious preference). It is not that the experience comes along to prove the belief, but that the belief begets the experience. Hence, devout Catholics experience the 'Virgin' or one of the 'Saints', Hindu's experience Brahmah or one of his supposed manifestations, zealous Baptists see Jesus in a muffin, and so on. I have even read of devout communists having ecstatic experiences with one or another of Communisms long-dead founders.




I think for the Mystic, it does not matter if you can explain it away somehow.  They are connecting or at least partialy connecting to God.  I have no real problem thinking there can be several different kinds of Mystics.  Of course miracles from the Mystics, when they come and can be verified grant a certain added legitimacy. 

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3 years ago  ::  Mar 10, 2012 - 1:29AM #4
Namchuck
Posts: 11,639

Mar 9, 2012 -- 4:36PM, Erey wrote:


Mar 8, 2012 -- 2:59AM, Namchuck wrote:


Mar 7, 2012 -- 4:50PM, Erey wrote:

For a few years now I have been interested in Mysticism as I understand it, the experiencing of God both intuitively and with standard six senses.  I don't see much on this board that covers this because this just seems to be a New Age board.  I guess we all have different understandings of what is Mysticism?

Recently through Netflix I saw a movie movies.netflix.com/WiMovie/The_Taqwacore... The Taqwacores which seemed to me to cover young muslim mystics.   These goofy kids were reaching out and doing thier best to understand God.  They were very flawed in all this but they were reaching, with passion and hope.  It touched me and I thought this is an example of Mysticism.  Have any of you seen this before?

I also love this book by Tessa Bieoleki called Wild at Heart which discusses the christian mystics which is really just the saints.  She discusses what it is to be a christian mystic.   Have any of you heard of this book?




I've read it. It is a good book as far as that goes.


The thing is, aside from the assumption of God, we now have far better explantions for the so-called 'mystic experience' coming out of both psychology and the cognitive sciences.


Like I've said elsewhere, everyone wants to prove the truth of his or her belief through experience, but the belief conditions the experience (just as culture invariably conditions a persons religious preference). It is not that the experience comes along to prove the belief, but that the belief begets the experience. Hence, devout Catholics experience the 'Virgin' or one of the 'Saints', Hindu's experience Brahmah or one of his supposed manifestations, zealous Baptists see Jesus in a muffin, and so on. I have even read of devout communists having ecstatic experiences with one or another of Communisms long-dead founders.




I think for the Mystic, it does not matter if you can explain it away somehow.  They are connecting or at least partialy connecting to God.  I have no real problem thinking there can be several different kinds of Mystics.  Of course miracles from the Mystics, when they come and can be verified grant a certain added legitimacy. 





Yes, you are probably right. The mystic, like any devout believer, isn't likely to be inclined to let the truth spoil a good story.


And "miracles" are only invoked when it is transparently obvious that mystic claims appear hollow and little more than the products of wishful thinking.

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3 years ago  ::  Mar 10, 2012 - 6:55PM #5
BBarton
Posts: 1,670

If you put a mirror to your words, my dear Namchuck; perhaps one man's ignorance, is another's wisdom.Wink

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3 years ago  ::  Mar 11, 2012 - 3:47PM #6
Namchuck
Posts: 11,639

Mar 10, 2012 -- 6:55PM, BBarton wrote:


If you put a mirror to your words, my dear Namchuck; perhaps one man's ignorance, is another's wisdom.Wink




Perhaps, but that's why you look at the evidence. In a meritocratic worldview, every assumption about the world must work and be seen to work.

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2 years ago  ::  Mar 26, 2012 - 11:17PM #7
Erey
Posts: 18,690

Namchuck,



I guess for me,  I dont' want to drag myself to a Mysticism board to debate the idea that people can experience God.  I guess I feel like I want to talk about Mysticism as in how other people relate to God, not if people actually can relate to God.  Or if there is a God or if God exists.  I think there are other boards for that. 


I do think questioning the reality of God is valid, I think questioning how people can and do experience God is valid but at some point if we are going to get to the business of talking about Mysticism we can't get hung up on the agnostic arguments. 


What I am saying is if I want to debate the existance of God or if God is in people's lives I am not comming to a board like this.  There are more appropriate boards on Bnet. 

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2 years ago  ::  Mar 28, 2012 - 3:20AM #8
Namchuck
Posts: 11,639

Mar 26, 2012 -- 11:17PM, Erey wrote:


Namchuck,



I guess for me,  I dont' want to drag myself to a Mysticism board to debate the idea that people can experience God.  I guess I feel like I want to talk about Mysticism as in how other people relate to God, not if people actually can relate to God.  Or if there is a God or if God exists.  I think there are other boards for that. 


I do think questioning the reality of God is valid, I think questioning how people can and do experience God is valid but at some point if we are going to get to the business of talking about Mysticism we can't get hung up on the agnostic arguments. 


What I am saying is if I want to debate the existance of God or if God is in people's lives I am not comming to a board like this.  There are more appropriate boards on Bnet. 




"Drag myself"!?


I can't imagine why you'd come to the board at all if it requires such laborious effort, Erey? Smile


And your post above seems a little confused.


For instance, you appear to regard the questioning of God's existence as "valid" while at the same time suggesting that, when it comes to so-called mystic experience, one should simply make the assumption of the existence of the deity. Don't you think the issue of whether God exists or not might have a significant bearing on the nature of such 'experience', especially given that the great weight of evidence mitigates against God's existence?


If one adds to this the corroborative fact that both the neuro and cognitive sciences compellingly suggest that there might be alternative, better, and completely natural explanations for such experience - explanations that lie buried deep within our psychology - then the questioning is entirely, as you rightly opine, valid.


As I see it, the question of God's existence is now largely settled, something that leaves us entirely free to seriously and robustly investigate the real ground of 'mystic experience', which means investigating our own nature. Such introspection tends to dissolve the dreams and deliriums upon which the gods feed. 

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2 years ago  ::  Mar 29, 2012 - 10:36AM #9
BBarton
Posts: 1,670

"know what is in front of your face, and what is hidden from you will be disclosed to you."


-Jesus, The Gospel of Thomas, along with sages across the ages.


What one attributes to God may very person to person.  Some may see it as knowledge; external, internal knowledge.


What is "sin" to one, may be a miss-take to learn from, rather than a personality trait.  It is the judging of "unworthy" we give to one another, ourselves, or each others views; which cuts the fruit before it has ripened.  -Not near as sweet, succulent, or refreshing, but hard, bitter or sour and left to rot.


 

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2 years ago  ::  Mar 29, 2012 - 8:49PM #10
Erey
Posts: 18,690

Mar 28, 2012 -- 3:20AM, Namchuck wrote:


Mar 26, 2012 -- 11:17PM, Erey wrote:


Namchuck,



I guess for me,  I dont' want to drag myself to a Mysticism board to debate the idea that people can experience God.  I guess I feel like I want to talk about Mysticism as in how other people relate to God, not if people actually can relate to God.  Or if there is a God or if God exists.  I think there are other boards for that. 


I do think questioning the reality of God is valid, I think questioning how people can and do experience God is valid but at some point if we are going to get to the business of talking about Mysticism we can't get hung up on the agnostic arguments. 


What I am saying is if I want to debate the existance of God or if God is in people's lives I am not comming to a board like this.  There are more appropriate boards on Bnet. 




"Drag myself"!?


I can't imagine why you'd come to the board at all if it requires such laborious effort, Erey? 


And your post above seems a little confused.


For instance, you appear to regard the questioning of God's existence as "valid" while at the same time suggesting that, when it comes to so-called mystic experience, one should simply make the assumption of the existence of the deity. Don't you think the issue of whether God exists or not might have a significant bearing on the nature of such 'experience', especially given that the great weight of evidence mitigates against God's existence?


Namchuck - Yes if you are actually going to go to the effort to discuss how people relate to God then you have already made the assumption that God exists.  Or at least you are willing to put aside the questions of existance to discuss relationship.  Why would I be interested in discussing how people relate to God if I don't believe God exists?  Why would you?  By joining in a discussion of how people relate to God then the assumption is already made that God exists. 


If one adds to this the corroborative fact that both the neuro and cognitive sciences compellingly suggest that there might be alternative, better, and completely natural explanations for such experience - explanations that lie buried deep within our psychology - then the questioning is entirely, as you rightly opine, valid.


As I see it, the question of God's existence is now largely settled, something that leaves us entirely free to seriously and robustly investigate the real ground of 'mystic experience', which means investigating our own nature. Such introspection tends to dissolve the dreams and deliriums upon which the gods feed. 


I am not sure what the above was all about.  I am left with the assumption that you come here, the Mysticism board to tell people that whatever they think might be about relationship with God is really nothing more than a neuro phenomenon devoid of any God.  That you are so concerned that people don't believe their own experiences have anything to do with God that you come here to tell them it does not.  Which IMO would be fine if this were the skepticism board or the atheism board.  I don't want to have those same tired debates here.  Just like I don't want to discuss climate change on the abortion board. 


Still, this is clearly a wasteland of Bnet and after several weeks you are the only person interested in engaging anyone on these subjects.  So I guess I can't complain too much, even if your motives are inappropriate. 





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