Jun 5, 2011 -- 2:34PM, simonzur wrote:

Jun 5, 2011 -- 2:05PM, Bodean wrote:

 

1) Just about everything you said after the first sentence.

2)

The very principle that Jesus came down from heaven to be flogged, beaten, tortured, and then killed to attone for humanity's sin so that God and Man could have a relationship is pretty spot on ... I take that back .. it is exactly spot on with what is in my "speech".

What are you saying here?  Are you saying that Jesus did come to do these things or that he did not?  I need this clarification before I can respond.

3) I did not say that your understanding was not your own, though in truth it sounds like the same canned messages I often hear repeated.  I did say that my understanding is not my own.

I am not the judge of which understanding among men is inferior or superior.  I simply accept that God's understanding of himself and all things is superior to anything man could create out of his own imagination.

4)

I hold that Christs was not about "religion" .... because Religion is necessarily about power and control .. and in almost all cases, leads to politics and corruption.  BUT .. in the context that religions serve as a jumping on place ... an opening of the door so to speak, I'm not really bashing religions .... they only become evil when the religious dogma becomes the end, as opposed to embarking on a continual journey ... "seek the kingdom of heaven".

You may hold this understanding, and you are not entirely wrong in what you have said here, but you cannot support your previous claims with scripture when viewed as a whole.  Even these current claims can be refuted if you hold to them as absolute truth because each assertion you have made is impure in that it is a mixture of some truth and some falsehood.

This is a serious question that I would like you to answer before we proceed if you are still "in for a discussion".

***** What is the ultimate purpose of discipline?

Simon

**** This depends on what definition of discipline you are referring.  With regards to punishment, it is to establish obedience to a subjectively desired way of behaving, usually out of fear.  Within the broader context, discipline is related to training to achieve a way of improved behavior, usually mental or moral.

It is in this context that followers are called disciples.  They are obedient to their leader and the leader's teachings, that is, they behave as the leader would have them behave.  So, now that I"ve answered that question for you ... I'll procede with the discussion.

1) You say everything after the first sentence, with that first sentence being a speculation that she is Jewish, and hence why she thinks my understanding is wrong.  So, I'll ask you a question with regards to the rest.  Do you deny that animal sacrifice does not occur throughout the old testiment??  The Story of Abraham says quite plainly, that God tested Abraham to sacrifice his only son, but then provided a ram for sacrifice.   Thus, I've given you the scriptural proof that the perspective for Judaism of the time, and time leading up to Christ's time, did indeed include animal sacrifice.  As noted in the New Testement, even Jesus' parents sacrificed doves.

The whole principle of animal sacrifice in Judaism was associated with the thought that the "sinner" should sacrifice themselves, but that the animal sacrifice would suffice for the attonement of the wrong. [that from Jewish Sites on its history].  It reeks of this thought, what I call "missing the mark", that God, or Hashem, is some blood thirsty, angry, vengful God that requires something die in order to attone for sin.

Since Christianity basically was birthed from Judaism, it is no suprise that some of the same mind set would follow into it.  As such, Jesus is the "Lamb of God" .. sacrificed so that all men could live.  Again ... with the mindset that God the Father, would require such a noble sacrifice as his own son to attone for humanity's sin.

But the death of Jesus as being the pinnacle of his presence is completely contradictory to what his LIFE was about.  Count the number of times in the New Testement where Jesus was "teaching".  Jesus did not come to die, Jesus came to teach, he came to gather up his flock and lead them, he came to bring us the TRUTH. [Jesus himself states this].  As I noted, and I am not wrong, Repent, a central part of Christiantiy as well as Judaism, involves "a change in thinking".  Now we could pretend this pertains to simple thinking, like that associated with doing perceived wrongs, but then, as you noted, when taking all of the teachings as a whole, Jesus's teachings were completely and purely about our relationship with God the Father.  He taught this by word, and he taught this by example.

In all of this ... Jesus does not once say that if you believe I came here to die for your sins, then you will have eternal life.  No, Jesus says if you believe in me. .... as in believe in me as your humble sheppard, the words and the teachings I bring.  Put this in Context to the John Scriputure you linked to F.O. about the Sheppard.  The link you presented echoed the EXACT words I noted earlier [in meaning] .... a contrast to the Pharisee's who preach a self serving message.

A friend of mine and I were discussing the topic that his Church of Christ friends believed they were the only one's going to heaven.  He asked the CoC preacher, what's the most important scripture ... the John scripture ... whosoever believeth in etc .... I pointed out to him that the same question was asked of Jesus!  Jesus didn't say the John Scripture .. he said .. Love God and likened to that, Love your neighbor.

I'll take Jesus' word for it.

2) It is the principle belief of Christianity, that Jesus came to save us from eternal damnation .. he came to die for our wrong doings.  i.e., Jesus came to serve as the animal sacrifice for attonement of all mankinds sins "so that sins may be forgiven", so that we could share in eternal glory with God the Father.

Such a perspective is in complete contradiction to the proclamation of Jesus himself, that God the Father is all merciful, all loving, all forgiving.  There was according to Jesus, no need for Humanity to sacrifice Jesus on the cross for forgiveness.  The only purpose of the crucifixion was to raise Jesus to the level of Messiah that he was. .. to prove he could conquer death, and thus solidify that he was indeed the Son of God. ..the good sheppard.

It was the fullfilment of the Scriptures.  God sent us the Messiah .. and the Powers that Be, ie, the Jewish Priest nailed him to a tree. .... no doubt, because he was destroying their monopoly on the flock.

3) There is nothing "canned" about my relationship with God.  It did not come about at the hands of a preacher selling me a message, nor did it come about from my own musings, nor from the peer pressure that comes about from some emotional message spoken amoung a group of believers ... but from a relentless pursuit of the truth.  It came about from a single prayer that arose from the very disconnect that I noticed amoung Christianity on who's right and who's wrong..... for which I found the guidance from Jesus himself  "Seek the Truth, and the Truth shall set you free".

Not to say I hold anything against the "canned message" that comes from every pulipit in every church, as it has turned the lives around for many wandeering in the darkness.  "Every Star in the Heavens shines with its own brightness".

4) Not sure what previous claim you are referring to.  I assure you I can support ALL of my belief with the Four Gospels ... which are the only words of Jesus' himself.  I put little stock in the rest, as it is of men.