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3 years ago  ::  Jul 21, 2011 - 4:11AM #11
Namchuck
Posts: 10,789

Jul 20, 2011 -- 9:56PM, Puresoul wrote:


People Who Lack Faith Require Solid Evidence Or Concrete Proof.  Doubt is stronger and more plentiful than anything else.  And that is why people take a stance against things like "The Fourth Way" or esoteric Christianity.


But those who belleve don't need to have everything backed up or referenced by archiological facts or anything like that.  FAITH is what we base our relationship with The Almighty CREATOR on. 


 




There are people who are concerned with truth, people for whom knowledge is more compelling than mere belief. However, not all people are so constituted.


Some people are driven by a simple will to believe. For such people, religion - by whatever fancy name it might go by - fulfills a basic desire to be religious. Their faith (the transparent admission that their beliefs cannot stand on their own two feet) is impregnable to fact, their belief impervious to mere truth. 

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3 years ago  ::  Jul 21, 2011 - 2:35PM #12
Puresoul
Posts: 43

Jul 21, 2011 -- 4:11AM, Namchuck wrote:


Jul 20, 2011 -- 9:56PM, Puresoul wrote:


People Who Lack Faith Require Solid Evidence Or Concrete Proof.  Doubt is stronger and more plentiful than anything else.  And that is why people take a stance against things like "The Fourth Way" or esoteric Christianity.


But those who belleve don't need to have everything backed up or referenced by archiological facts or anything like that.  FAITH is what we base our relationship with The Almighty CREATOR on. 


 




There are people who are concerned with truth, people for whom knowledge is more compelling than mere belief. However, not all people are so constituted.


Some people are driven by a simple will to believe. For such people, religion - by whatever fancy name it might go by - fulfills a basic desire to be religious. Their faith (the transparent admission that their beliefs cannot stand on their own two feet) is impregnable to fact, their belief impervious to mere truth. 





You misunderstood my point.  It's not that religion can't be proven at all.   But the individuals who REQUIRE Proof In Order To Believe Or Accept Something As Truth, Those Are Doubting Thomas', and they are the ones who lack faith.


I have no problem with proving what I believe to be based on facts.  The Only Problem I Have Is When A Person Who Is Totally Closed Minded Says, "prove it to me", When They Knew From The Beginning That They Had No Intention On Listening To Reason.   It's like trying to change someone's sexual orientation or something like that (LOL).  HOW CAN YOU TRULY CONVERT A GAY MAN INTO A STRAIGHT MAN?...Samething goes for trying to explain religion to a Non-Believer.

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3 years ago  ::  Jul 22, 2011 - 3:34AM #13
Namchuck
Posts: 10,789

Jul 21, 2011 -- 2:35PM, Puresoul wrote:


Jul 21, 2011 -- 4:11AM, Namchuck wrote:


Jul 20, 2011 -- 9:56PM, Puresoul wrote:


People Who Lack Faith Require Solid Evidence Or Concrete Proof.  Doubt is stronger and more plentiful than anything else.  And that is why people take a stance against things like "The Fourth Way" or esoteric Christianity.


But those who belleve don't need to have everything backed up or referenced by archiological facts or anything like that.  FAITH is what we base our relationship with The Almighty CREATOR on. 


 




There are people who are concerned with truth, people for whom knowledge is more compelling than mere belief. However, not all people are so constituted.


Some people are driven by a simple will to believe. For such people, religion - by whatever fancy name it might go by - fulfills a basic desire to be religious. Their faith (the transparent admission that their beliefs cannot stand on their own two feet) is impregnable to fact, their belief impervious to mere truth. 





You misunderstood my point.  It's not that religion can't be proven at all.


I don't think I misunderstood your point at all.


Anyway, can religion be "proven" to any degree? And which one?


   But the individuals who REQUIRE Proof In Order To Believe Or Accept Something As Truth, Those Are Doubting Thomas', and they are the ones who lack faith.


I don't know that anyone is asking for 'proof'. There are those, like myself, who are simply skeptical about religious claims. While skepticism is not necessarily a negative position - I'm thinking in terms of what Goethe referred to as 'Thatige Skepsis', or "active doubt" - why should one believe until the evidence is favorable enough?


The reason why I am a skeptic, in the Goethean sense, rather than a religionist is because I think the idea of skepticism is immeasurably healthier and closer to the truth than any ideas proposed by religion, regardless of human fallibility in both camps. 


I have no problem with proving what I believe to be based on facts.  The Only Problem I Have Is When A Person Who Is Totally Closed Minded Says, "prove it to me", When They Knew From The Beginning That They Had No Intention On Listening To Reason.   It's like trying to change someone's sexual orientation or something like that (LOL).  HOW CAN YOU TRULY CONVERT A GAY MAN INTO A STRAIGHT MAN?...Samething goes for trying to explain religion to a Non-Believer.




Well, some religious people like to label people "Close Minded" only to mask the fact that the reasons they give for their beliefs are invariably so inadequate to the inquirer.

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3 years ago  ::  Jul 25, 2011 - 6:13AM #14
BIRK
Posts: 1,912

  Have you ever stopped taking in information in , long enough to compare how similar each path to God requires the intention to Love, "Oh so completely"?


  Surrender all fear to unconditional Love.  This is the key to all wisdom that mankind has come up with so far.   It is that simple.


  The Hardest part is the knowing that you want to know. how to Love completely".


   Thats the cord only you can cut.


  I can't cut anyones cord. nor would I want to, until they're ready.


  Contrary to popular belief, Prophets and Mystics are not here to save any body from anything.


   We know The world is in perfect order, everywhere love is allowed to flourish..


 

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3 years ago  ::  Jul 26, 2011 - 2:42AM #15
Namchuck
Posts: 10,789

Jul 25, 2011 -- 6:13AM, BIRK wrote:


  Have you ever stopped taking in information in , long enough to compare how similar each path to God requires the intention to Love, "Oh so completely"?


Most religions are very prone to talking about love, but it seldom rises above the verbal level, as the history of religion amply testifies.


  Surrender all fear to unconditional Love.  This is the key to all wisdom that mankind has come up with so far.   It is that simple.


That's the kind of verbal expressions I have just referred to.


  The Hardest part is the knowing that you want to know. how to Love completely".


   Thats the cord only you can cut.


  I can't cut anyones cord. nor would I want to, until they're ready.


I think you're pulling mine. :)


  Contrary to popular belief, Prophets and Mystics are not here to save any body from anything.


Just as well, for if they were, they've failed miserably.


   We know The world is in perfect order, everywhere love is allowed to flourish..


One could debate that point with compelling evidence.


 





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3 years ago  ::  Jul 27, 2011 - 7:13AM #16
BIRK
Posts: 1,912

It will come to you when you want it most, and then forget that you wanted it.

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3 years ago  ::  Jul 28, 2011 - 2:47AM #17
Namchuck
Posts: 10,789

Jul 27, 2011 -- 7:13AM, BIRK wrote:


It will come to you when you want it most, and then forget that you wanted it.





Not quite sure what the "it" is you're referring to, BIRK, but if it's love, I've had, and have, my fair share.

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2 years ago  ::  Dec 31, 2011 - 10:20PM #18
stardustpilgrim
Posts: 5,277

...............bumped.........


Dec 3, 2010 -- 11:38AM, stardustpilgrim wrote:


Dec 1, 2010 -- 2:37AM, Vardu wrote:


Nov 29, 2010 -- 4:01AM, BBarton wrote:


Thanks, Merope.  I did like that site.  A good book too is:  "In Search of the Miraculous", the teachings of G. I. Gurdjieff by P. D. Ouspensky




 


Oh, you are kidding, right!?


Gurdjieff the infamous hoaxer!


 




I would hazzard a guess that you've never heard of Gurdjieff until this post, and googled him. I reply only because many here have probably never heard of Gurdjieff and it would be a shame if all they ever heard was that he was a hoaxer.


For reasons of his own, Gurdjieff went out of his way to put himself in a bad light. This does not excuse the cases where he took advantage of other people's ignorance on occasion, many of the instances reported by Gurdjieff himself. Most of the occurrences that leave tails (an 'inside-joke') that might be googled were perpetrated on his own followers, in most cases gladly (by them, what he called shearing sheep).  

Do you know of any hoaxers who have a book on Martin Seymour-Smith's compendium of the 100 most influencial books ever written? Gurdjieff is there.


Gurdjieff knew more about human nature than anyone else in the last 1,000 years. Many ideas of today's world can be traced back to Gurdjieff. One is Martin Gardner's idea of multiple intelligences in man. (Not saying Gardner got his idea from Gurdjieff, but Gurdjieff predates Gardner). In a book written in the 20's Gurdjieff stated that nicotine is more addictive than heroin.


In Search of the Miraculous is Ouspensky's report of what he learned from Gurdjieff. It doesn't paint a pretty picture of mankind, it's rather bleak and unappealing, but true and honest. Man was created unfinished, and must participate in fulfilling his potential. This is in no sense easy. The vast majority of us are still unfinished........... 


Gurdjieff can be summed up with story of the young girl who was looking for her birthday wish. She was found in her back yard digging through a huge pile of manure. Her father asked her what on earth she was doing. She lifted up her head and smiled saying: Well...with all this crap, I figure there must be a pony under here somewhere........


Maybe Gurdjieff hid a diamond in a pile of ..... merde...........


sdp 





The purpose of words is to convey ideas. When the ideas are grasped, the words are forgotten.
Where can I find a man who has forgotten words? He is the one I would like to talk to.
The Way of Chuang Tzu by Thomas Merton

A map is not the territory.                                                                 Alfred Korzybski

God is that function in the world by reason of which our purposes are directed to ends which in our own consciousness are impartial as to our own interests. He is that element in life in virtue of which judgment stretches beyond facts of existence to values of existence.      Alfred North Whitehead
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2 years ago  ::  Jan 01, 2012 - 3:01PM #19
Namchuck
Posts: 10,789

Gurdjieff, an infamous charlatan, nut, and hoaxer.

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2 years ago  ::  Jan 03, 2012 - 2:32PM #20
BBarton
Posts: 1,670

Besides Jehanne de Quillan's "The Gospel of the Beloved Companion", there were two other books I find keepers:  "The Secret Teachings of All Ages", by Manly Hall and "Meditations on the Tarot", Anonymous.


 

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