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7 years ago  ::  Nov 07, 2007 - 9:09PM #81
RaymondSigrist
Posts: 578
But as I surrender I may as well try it again:

Hi flowingupstream and SDP

         I am not sure whether or not we can report on any experience which the ego has not organized and remembered before we report it happening.  I don
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7 years ago  ::  Nov 07, 2007 - 9:20PM #82
Flowupstream
Posts: 244
Reporting on anything requires organization, by ego, to do the reporting.
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7 years ago  ::  Nov 07, 2007 - 9:20PM #83
wonderment
Posts: 580
Raymond, Welcome to my world:)! Thanks to Hatman and one of the other guys I found out that when you write in wordpad, or someplace other than directly here, and try to copy and paste, it's the apostrophe (like it looks as if your word was "don't") that messes things up. For some reason it just doesn't take and omits everything after it. I've given up trying to copy and paste. I find if I just compose right here it works fine.
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7 years ago  ::  Nov 07, 2007 - 9:26PM #84
RaymondSigrist
Posts: 578
[QUOTE=wonderment;52675]Raymond, Welcome to my world:)! Thanks to Hatman and one of the other guys I found out that when you write in wordpad, or someplace other than directly here, and try to copy and paste, it's the apostrophe (like it looks as if your word was "don't") that messes things up. For some reason it just doesn't take and omits everything after it. I've given up trying to copy and paste. I find if I just compose right here it works fine.[/QUOTE]


Thanks wonderment.  Now I will reveal how unmystical and stubborn I can be--

Hi flowingupstream and SDP

         I am not sure whether or not we can report on any experience which the ego has not organized and remembered before we report it happening.  I do not understand how it can be done.

I can report to you that a few moments ago I was in what I call the double-mode of awareness.  I had an undifferentiated awareness of something ineffable and at the same time an awareness of my visual field.  In this particular case that I am reporting to you, in order to maintain the undifferentiated awareness, I needed to intend to do so.

Not having any intention, is apparently not necessary for me in order to generate that undifferentiated state.  And of course I do realize that for you, my reported experience might not qualify for what you regard as mystical experience.

Love,
raymond
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7 years ago  ::  Nov 07, 2007 - 9:32PM #85
Flowupstream
Posts: 244
[QUOTE=RaymondSigrist;52684]Thanks wonderment.  Now I will reveal how unmystical and stubborn I can be--

Hi flowingupstream and SDP

         I am not sure whether or not we can report on any experience which the ego has not organized and remembered before we report it happening.  I do not understand how it can be done.

I can report to you that a few moments ago I was in what I call the double-mode of awareness.  I had an undifferentiated awareness of something ineffable and at the same time an awareness of my visual field.  In this particular case that I am reporting to you, in order to maintain the undifferentiated awareness, I needed to intend to do so.

Not having any intention, is apparently not necessary for me in order to generate that undifferentiated state.  And of course I do realize that for you, my reported experience might not qualify for what you regard as mystical experience.

Love,
raymond[/QUOTE]
"And of course I do realize that for you, my reported experience might not qualify for what you regard as mystical experience."
OTOH, your reported experience might be my primary qualifier.
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7 years ago  ::  Nov 07, 2007 - 10:31PM #86
wonderment
Posts: 580

RaymondSigrist wrote:


. . .I am not sure whether or not we can report on any experience which the ego has not organized and remembered before we report it happening. I do not understand how it can be done.

I can report to you that a few moments ago I was in what I call the double-mode of awareness. I had an undifferentiated awareness of something ineffable and at the same time an awareness of my visual field. In this particular case that I am reporting to you, in order to maintain the undifferentiated awareness, I needed to intend to do so.

Not having any intention, is apparently not necessary for me in order to generate that undifferentiated state. And of course I do realize that for you, my reported experience might not qualify for what you regard as mystical experience.

Love,
raymond



What is great to me about what you are saying here Raymond is that it dispels the popular myth that mystical experience is something "otherworldly" or "saintly" or limited to the very rare, "holy" few. The state of undifferentiated awareness of something ineffable is only unattainable if we think it is. Our sense of "I" is the only thing that ever keeps us separated from it.

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7 years ago  ::  Nov 08, 2007 - 11:47AM #87
stardustpilgrim
Posts: 5,278
kip-I see no contradiction. Observation IS activity of the ego, And again; observation of that which can't be contained is "The One True Gate"

There is either another contradiction here, or you're using "observation" in two different senses, and if that's the case, you need to use two different words.

The whole contains the part. I will agree on this. Maybe this is where we are misunderstanding each other. But the part CAN'T contain the whole. ............and if you're living through ego, you CAN'T come upon "that which can't be contained is "The One True Gate".

I still say "the whole" has a "represenative" which is present here, now. It's not contaminated by ego. And you can follow it "like a trail of bread crumbs" back to the source.

How did you function as a newborn baby? You lived through this "represenative". You weren't born with an ego. You were born connected to the source. You constructed ego which became a barrier to connection with the source. When Jesus said that we have to become "like a little child", he meant this quite literally. You have to begin living again, as you did as a little baby, through the "represenative" of the source. And then you can come to the source. ..........and then the part is less an obstruction to living through the whole. And eventually the part (ego) ..........just becomes..........like speaking another language.............
sdp
The purpose of words is to convey ideas. When the ideas are grasped, the words are forgotten.
Where can I find a man who has forgotten words? He is the one I would like to talk to.
The Way of Chuang Tzu by Thomas Merton

A map is not the territory.                                                                 Alfred Korzybski

God is that function in the world by reason of which our purposes are directed to ends which in our own consciousness are impartial as to our own interests. He is that element in life in virtue of which judgment stretches beyond facts of existence to values of existence.      Alfred North Whitehead
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7 years ago  ::  Nov 08, 2007 - 12:16PM #88
stardustpilgrim
Posts: 5,278
sdp-I have an excellent book around here somewhere, by a lady from AHUM, Elizabeth ???, who is/was connected with Sri Ramana Maharishi. Their US base is in Ashboro, NC, about an hour from me. Also working with her (or she with him?) is Ramana .

The book is called Living From the Heart....It's all about love....A Self-inquiry Experience by Elizabeth MacDonald. Their place is called the AHAM Center (not AHUM :-).  "IN 1978, she met Ramana, her spiritual teacher. ... He introduced her to the teaching of his guru, Bhagavan Sri Ramana Maharshi, and taught her Self-Inquiry. They co-founded AHAM. Elizabeth currently resides at the AHAM Center in Ashboro, NC, and at the AHAM ashram in Tiruvannamalai, S. India, during the winter.
sdp
The purpose of words is to convey ideas. When the ideas are grasped, the words are forgotten.
Where can I find a man who has forgotten words? He is the one I would like to talk to.
The Way of Chuang Tzu by Thomas Merton

A map is not the territory.                                                                 Alfred Korzybski

God is that function in the world by reason of which our purposes are directed to ends which in our own consciousness are impartial as to our own interests. He is that element in life in virtue of which judgment stretches beyond facts of existence to values of existence.      Alfred North Whitehead
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7 years ago  ::  Nov 08, 2007 - 12:25PM #89
stardustpilgrim
Posts: 5,278
[QUOTE=flowupstream;49948]SDP,
You are aware that Sri Ramana died in 1950 aren't you?[/QUOTE]

I would say that being in a line of transmission of teaching is being "connected to".  Concerning is/was. The is part means she's still alive. The was part means he's dead.
sdp
The purpose of words is to convey ideas. When the ideas are grasped, the words are forgotten.
Where can I find a man who has forgotten words? He is the one I would like to talk to.
The Way of Chuang Tzu by Thomas Merton

A map is not the territory.                                                                 Alfred Korzybski

God is that function in the world by reason of which our purposes are directed to ends which in our own consciousness are impartial as to our own interests. He is that element in life in virtue of which judgment stretches beyond facts of existence to values of existence.      Alfred North Whitehead
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7 years ago  ::  Nov 08, 2007 - 4:04PM #90
stardustpilgrim
Posts: 5,278
[QUOTE=GoodShepard;47764]stardustpilgrim:  "Was there a different quality of energy present in Paradise? That's, the way back, and the way to stay there."

As I said, my concern is not with the way back, or how to stay there, except in the man-made world.  Unless you have something to add to what I've surmised about the rules for that - specifically - there's no reason for you to continue replying.[/QUOTE]

"There are other doctrines which maintain that lack of self-mastery is the key to human suffering, so they teach various methods of training which focus on producing progressive changes..........So far as Zen is concerned, this is no better than training for a performing animal, and the result will be some form of enslavement, accompanied by the uplifting illusion that one is becoming free. The reasoning which underpins all these approaches is simplistic: 'This way of doing things is causing problems, so from now on I'm going to do just the opposite.' Formulating the problem like this, by taking a form of activity judged to be bad as one's starting-point, confines the seeker within the formal domain. This precludes any possibility of integrating consciousness by transcending form; if I am confined within the dualistic plane, no change in polarity, no switch from negative to positive, will free me from the dualistic illusion and restore me into Unity".

from: The Light of Zen in the West, The Supreme Doctrine & The Realization of the Self by Hubert Benoit page 11

This doesn't specifically speak to the problem, but I think you can make it apply, and it confirmes what I was trying to say.
sdp
The purpose of words is to convey ideas. When the ideas are grasped, the words are forgotten.
Where can I find a man who has forgotten words? He is the one I would like to talk to.
The Way of Chuang Tzu by Thomas Merton

A map is not the territory.                                                                 Alfred Korzybski

God is that function in the world by reason of which our purposes are directed to ends which in our own consciousness are impartial as to our own interests. He is that element in life in virtue of which judgment stretches beyond facts of existence to values of existence.      Alfred North Whitehead
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