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Flag KindredSai August 17, 2012 2:25 PM EDT
thinkprogress.org/security/2012/08/17/69...

Two separate attacks on Palestinians civilians Friday morning raise serious questions about rising anti-Palestinian radicalism among Israeli youth. 
Flag Mlyons619 August 18, 2012 2:38 AM EDT

KSai, the two incidents in the OP are in no way sanctioned by the Israeli Government and appear to be the acts of individual hooligans.  If the Israeli Police catch up with them, I rather doubt they'll receive anything other than a stint in Israeli version of juvenile hall.


What do you have to say about rock throwing mobs of Palestinian youths?

Flag BDboy August 18, 2012 10:23 PM EDT

I feel all attacks on civilians are bad. But we should not compare a state government who claims to be democratic with rag tag often clueless militias.


I mean we are trying to compare US army with Michigan militia here. Hope good people keep that in mind.


 


 


....just a little context ....

Flag LeahOne August 19, 2012 12:36 PM EDT

BD that's not 'context' - it's totally and completely off-topic.


The 'attacks' in the very misleadingly titled OP are by 'ragtag militia' wannabes of  fanatic fringe 'settlers' - not the Israeli government.

Flag habesor August 19, 2012 5:05 PM EDT

Kindredsai,


I am on vacation in Barcelona this week and I used the computer that is available in the hotel to drop in just to see what is happening on the forum. I read your message and it makes a fair request. So I will try to respond.


Attacks on innocent Muslims or on anyone else by Jews for whatever reason are a crime and the attackers should be caught by the Israeli police and punished by the courts. More often than not this is what happens though the Israeli courts tend to be lenient, in my opinion too lenient, on young offenders. This is the case whether the victim of such criminal attacks are Arabs or Jews. 


Now Kindredsai, for a more personal opinion, I think that attacks on innocent Arabs by Jewish hoodlums are disgusting and no behavior on the part of any Arabs justifies such attacks.


I hope that I have answered your message adequately.


Habesor

Flag Mlyons619 August 19, 2012 5:26 PM EDT

I have referred to the attackers as young hooligans.  I have stated my belief that, if caught, those young hooligans should spend time in a youth detention center.  I believe I HAVE more than adequately expressed my contempt for these punks. 


This is, however, a police court matter, and not the political one you are trying to make it out to be. 

Flag LeahOne August 19, 2012 7:16 PM EDT

I think Habesor has pretty well covered it!


Barcelona is a beautiful city - hope you are having a spectacular time there : ))  There are some really stellar jazz clubs in town.....


 


We have had similar incidents in the US where a group of young monsters attacked a jogger in Central Park and all but killed her - because they were 'bored'.  They were young teens, some under 15.  I seem to recall they served very little time


In Ohio, a batch of kiddy thugs beat a man nearly to death because they were bored - they were something like 13 years old, and may only get 'probabtion'.


 


 

Flag KindredSai August 19, 2012 8:14 PM EDT

Now Kindredsai, for a more personal opinion, I think that attacks on innocent Arabs by Jewish hoodlums are disgusting and no behavior on the part of any Arabs justifies such attacks.



If only you could back that belief it is actually Israeli youths.


The thing about price tag attacks they're done in secret, secrecy doesn't reveal age. But What I can tell you, Leah, Lyons and Habesor attacks have happened from settlers from youths to adults.


Maybe the courts are too lenient Habesor, but then maybe the IDF and Israeli police are quite apathetic when it comes to attacks against Palestinians, it is documented in East Jerusalem, Israeli police and army watch while Jews dump their garbage in front of Arab homes and Jewish women often spit aand attack anyone who wears a headscarf.


PS: I hope you're having a good time in Barcelona:)

Flag LeahOne August 19, 2012 8:22 PM EDT

'Documented', Ksai? 


I don't think the 'documentation' of people like that is of much use in truth.

Flag KindredSai August 20, 2012 5:02 PM EDT

Aug 19, 2012 -- 8:22PM, LeahOne wrote:


'Documented', Ksai? 


I don't think the 'documentation' of people like that is of much use in truth.




Not every independent organization is a left wing Marxist cess-pit you try and paint them to be.


We believe you when you say there are 0 attacks against Palestinian civilians by Jews. Israeli Jews never attack anyone innocent and anyone who documents an attack is a hippy activist.

Flag browbeaten August 20, 2012 5:28 PM EDT

Aug 20, 2012 -- 5:02PM, KindredSai wrote:


Aug 19, 2012 -- 8:22PM, LeahOne wrote:


'Documented', Ksai? 


I don't think the 'documentation' of people like that is of much use in truth.




Not every independent organization is a left wing Marxist cess-pit you try and paint them to be.


We believe you when you say there are 0 attacks against Palestinian civilians by Jews. Israeli Jews never attack anyone innocent and anyone who documents an attack is a hippy activist.




No, what is means is that there is no coordinated movement by Israel or Israelis to attack Palestinians.  Yet, there is a COORDINATED movement for Palestinians to attack Israel.


Flag habesor August 21, 2012 1:49 AM EDT

Good morning Ksai,


I was responding to your OP which read:


Two separate attacks on Palestinians civilians Friday morning raise serious questions about rising anti-Palestinian radicalism among Israeli youth. 



If you want to discuss attacks on Palestinians by Israeli adults, that is fine but your focus, not mine, was on Israeli youth and that shaped my response.


There have been attacks by Israeli youth on both Arabs and Jews just as there have been attacks by Arab youths on both Jews and Arabs. Some have resulted in severe injury and some in death and very few of these attacks have been motivated by politics though prejudice may have played a part. In just about all of the cases I think that the courts have been too lenient in handing out punishments, but that is another issue. Also, when it comes to attacks only a very small percentage of Jewish youth are involved and the general educational attitude is to condemn such attacks. The same goes for Arab youth as far as percentages are concerned. However, educationally there are a number of instances where a message has been delivered to Arab youth by their educational institutions that could motivate them to attack Jews. This is unfortunate and Kindredsai, people like you have tended to ignore these negative elements, though I do not recall you ever denying their existance.


Quite a bit is done in the Israeli educational system to promote mutual tollerance between Arabs and Jews. As a teacher I took part in programs which brought Jewish and Arab youth together, which I think is far more effective than reading material or lectures. However I don't think enough is done. In fact, it ¡s never enough.


Habesor

Flag KindredSai August 21, 2012 6:19 PM EDT

No, what is means is that there is no coordinated movement by Israel or Israelis to attack Palestinians.  Yet, there is a COORDINATED movement for Palestinians to attack Israel.



BS, this statement is not backed. The Israeli army routinely attacks Palestinian civilian areas.


The fact that Palestinians are occupied or denied Israeli citizenship for the most part speaks a greater prejudice that makes it easy for an Israeli to attack.

Flag Dostojevsky August 22, 2012 7:46 AM EDT

"


Quite a bit is done in the Israeli educational system to promote mutual tollerance between Arabs and Jews. As a teacher I took part in programs which brought Jewish and Arab youth together, which I think is far more effective than reading material or lectures. However I don't think enough is done. In fact, it ¡s never enough."


Habesor, and no bringing togather Israeli and Palestinian youths?


You talk about education. The heart of Jewishness is religion. There's no point of saying it is secular state, children are thought Judaistic spiritual values. There's no point telling youths, you must be nice, while the spiritual advisors Rabbi telling them Jews are far superior to non-Jews and words much more derogatory than this.


 

Flag CharikIeia August 22, 2012 10:23 AM EDT

Aug 21, 2012 -- 1:49AM, habesor wrote:


Quite a bit is done in the Israeli educational system to promote mutual tollerance between Arabs and Jews. As a teacher I took part in programs which brought Jewish and Arab youth together, which I think is far more effective than reading material or lectures. However I don't think enough is done. In fact, it ¡s never enough.


Habesor



Hi Habesor, I hope you're having a good time in Barcelona!


A colleague of mine from Tel Aviv told me that more and more of such programmes have been defunded and discontinued over the last decade, and that nowadays (he said this in spring 2011) one could not speak of any meaningful tolerance-promotion programmes being done in Israel any more.


Based on your view, was he over-stating?

Flag browbeaten August 22, 2012 10:48 AM EDT

Aug 21, 2012 -- 6:19PM, KindredSai wrote:


No, what is means is that there is no coordinated movement by Israel or Israelis to attack Palestinians.  Yet, there is a COORDINATED movement for Palestinians to attack Israel.



BS, this statement is not backed. The Israeli army routinely attacks Palestinian civilian areas.


Where is your proof??  There is absolutely no truth to this.


The fact that Palestinians are occupied or denied Israeli citizenship for the most part speaks a greater prejudice that makes it easy for an Israeli to attack.


Israel has NO obligation to offer citizenship to anyone, occupied (which is also not true) or not.





Flag KindredSai August 22, 2012 1:23 PM EDT

Where is your proof??  There is absolutely no truth to this.


Excessive use of force - Amnesty Report of Israel 2012


Israeli forces used live fire and other excessive force against Palestinian demonstrators in the West Bank and protesters at the Lebanese and Syrian borders, and to enforce the “exclusion zone” within Gaza and along its coast. They killed 55 Palestinian civilians in the OPT, including 11 children. Among them were 22 civilians, including nine children, killed by Israeli fire in Gaza’s land and sea restricted areas. The army initiated internal investigations into some of these incidents, but these were not independent or transparent.

  • Up to 35 people were reportedly killed and hundreds injured when Israeli soldiers fired at thousands of Palestinian refugees and others who protested on 15 May and 5 June at the Lebanese border with Israel and the Syrian border with the Israeli-occupied Golan. Some protesters threw stones and some crossed the border in the Golan Heights, but demonstrators did not have firearms and did not appear to pose a direct threat to the soldiers’ lives. Israel disputed the numbers killed and the circumstances.
  • Israeli soldiers regularly used excessive force against Palestinians demonstrating against the fence/wall, and those demonstrating against settlement expansion in the West Bank village of al-Nabi Saleh. On 9 December, they fatally injured Mustafa Tamimi, aged 28, who was struck in the face with a tear gas grenade fired at close range, in violation of military regulations, after he threw a stone at a military jeep.


Torture And Other Ill Treatment




Allegations of torture and other ill-treatment, including of children, continued to be reported. Among the most commonly cited methods were beatings, threats to the detainee or their family, sleep deprivation, and being shackled in painful positions for long periods. Confessions allegedly obtained under duress were accepted as evidence in Israeli military courts.

  • Islam Dar Ayyoub, aged 14, was arrested at his home in the West Bank village of al-Nabi Saleh at around 2am on 23 January. Blindfolded and handcuffed, he was transferred by military jeep via the nearby settlement of Halamish to the police station in the settlement of Ma’ale Adumim, where he was interrogated for hours without the presence of a lawyer; he was not allowed to rest, eat, or go to the toilet. Information obtained from him during interrogation was used to incriminate al-Nabi Saleh protest organizer Bassem Tamimi (see below).
  • In February, Gazan engineer Dirar Abu Sisi was forcibly transferred to Israel from Ukraine and held at Shikma Prison, near Ashkelon, where he was denied access to a lawyer for 25 days. In April, he was charged with developing rockets for Hamas’ military wing; the Israeli authorities said he had confessed but his lawyers alleged that his confession had been obtained under torture. He was still held, reportedly in solitary confinement, at the end of the year.




Unfair trials


Palestinians in the OPT continued to be tried before military courts and routinely denied access to lawyers during pre-trial interrogation. On 27 September, Military Order 1676 raised the age of majority for Palestinians being tried before Israeli military courts from 16 to 18. Previously, 16 and 17 year olds had been tried by these courts on the same basis as adults. The new order failed to require that child detainees be provided with access to legal counsel during interrogation or that children over 16 be held separately from adults.







Israel has NO obligation to offer citizenship to anyone, occupied (which is also not true) or not.


I think Beinhart puts its best when he says:


Beinart says Israel must give citizenship to Palestinians under occupation




I guess the question that comes to my mind… is how you are defining Israeli… The Palestinians of the West Bank have been under Israeli sovereignty since 1967. So to my mind that makes them, whether we like it or not, till we have a Palestinian state, Israelis. There is only one state that has sovereignty and dominion over their lives.. They’re not Israeli citizens, but Israel is the state that controls much of their lives.


Under international law if a Nation-State claims territory on a legal basis, it should offer citizenship to those therein, this in line with the Vienna Convnetion, the Hague Conventions 1899 and 1907 respectively.


If the UK claimed Scotland, but denied Muslims in Scotland British citizenship, that would be against international law. 


How do you not know this?

Flag habesor August 25, 2012 12:47 AM EDT

Hi Char,


Barcelona was great.  You asked:


"A colleague of mine from Tel Aviv told me that more and more of such programmes have been defunded and discontinued over the last decade, and that nowadays (he said this in spring 2011) one could not speak of any meaningful tolerance-promotion programmes being done in Israel any more."


It's hard for me to say as I have retired from teaching. Programs addressing mutual tolerance and peace still exist in Israeli schools but I doubt that they are promoted as enthusiastically now as they were before the second intifada. This doesn't have much to do with government funding as it does with the fact that the Israeli peace movement has been decimated by events. 


It could be that incidents, like those discussed in the OP, will lead to an increase in funding for mutual tollerance educational programs in Israeli schools. I am in favor of such programs but their success depends more on events outside of the school system than the intellectual content of the programs themselves. I think that person-to-person programs have the most effect and for a lot of reasons, including unwillingness of the PA to allow their students to take part, such programs occur less often than they did ten or fifteen years ago.


I find it all rather sad but that's the way it is.


Habesor

Flag CharikIeia September 3, 2012 2:27 AM EDT

Hi Habesor,


apologies for reacting so late, I overlooked your response somehow. Thanks for it first!


Aug 25, 2012 -- 12:47AM, habesor wrote:


I think that person-to-person programs have the most effect and for a lot of reasons, including unwillingness of the PA to allow their students to take part, such programs occur less often than they did ten or fifteen years ago.


I find it all rather sad but that's the way it is.


Habesor



What my colleague says is that the persons on whom such projects hinge, the brokers, those who have ties on both sides, don't exist anymore (or, well, less of them). Could it be a generation issue? You say you retired. Are there young people doing what you did, in this respect, at your old workplace today?


Of course, it is the events that happen when we grow up that determine how we engage ourselves. Plus, general trends - people nowadays don't interact so much from person to person any more, spend more time almost anonymously in front of their computers. This way, integration is hard to come by. The internet amplifies differences in opinion, and overlooks commonalities - as we see in this forum every day...

Flag habesor September 4, 2012 1:01 AM EDT

Char,


A few years ago I retired from teaching high school. Since then I have taught in teacher's colleges including Arab and Jewish teachers and institutions.  In at least one of the teachers colleges there was an ongoing program of teaching tolerance and peace as part of the regular curriculum. I have no idea what is going on in my former high school. In fact, it no longer exists but has been combined with another area high school. However, I still have connections and I will check. 


This year I have gone back to teaching high school.  I have begun to teach in a Bedouin school in an illegal Bedouin settlement in the Negev. It seems like a very interesting place but I have already discovered, or rediscovered, that no matter how parents might think that there own children are different, teenagers, at least in Israel, no matter what ethnic or religious community they live in, are all much more alike then they are different. 


Habesor

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