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Switch to Forum Live View Scranton, Pa. city employees (including police) now earning minimum wage
2 years ago  ::  Jul 11, 2012 - 10:09PM #31
Find1Answer
Posts: 7,253

Jul 11, 2012 -- 9:39PM, Bodean wrote:

Jul 11, 2012 -- 7:59PM, Find1Answer wrote:


I have never been to Scranton,  I am just trying to figure this out.   wonder where all the money went.      


  





Find ... the answer is simple.  The economy went south in 2008.  Consumers pulled back ... houses got foreclosed.  Thus, you have a significant decrease in revenue to the city.  The City had in place a lot of perks negotiated into place by previous City Admins .... those liabilities cost money, money that was "assumed" to exist in the future as tax revenue to the city.  Those tax revenues have not materialized due to decreased consummerism and property collections.


Now ..this is Rush talking, so take it for what you think it is worth, but it sounds plausible [given that Rush "Reads" most of his material" ... this was sourced, so it's not pure adlib.  Consultants allegedly convinced the banks to not loan money to the city unless a recovery plan was in place ... the recovery plan was a 78% increase on businesses.  The Mayor and City Council bauked at that ... so the banks didn't loan them the money.


Further, per caller, and he is right on the money, the future of Scranton, which is in the middle of Coal Country, is not a very bright future under Obama, who through his EPA is working to close all Coal Plants.


What's a guy to do??  He has no money.  The Banks won't lend him the money.  AND .. a significant source of revenue to the area is being systematically dismantled by the Obama administration.  Doesn't leave him much choice.  Either file bankruptcy, or cut payouts.


I read that the council wanted to borrow and the mayor wanted to tax and then the council did not borrow.    like Rush stated.   that is the standoff between the council and the mayor  regardless they were out of money anyway.    I think I read that the mayor has held office for over 10 years.      As far as the police dept goes I do not see unreasonable benefits.    I donno maybe cities should just hire contract labor.


according to wiki Scranton has not been in the coal business since the late fifties.     Most coal fired plants are looking to natural gas and the natural gas lobby has been driving the nail in coal's coffin for a very long time.   Obama did not ride in on his horse and do all that and if you are claiming it is Obama killing the coal industry then he is doing it for big oil and gas lobby in addition to the enviromentalists.         


After World War II, coal lost favor to oil and natural gas. While some U.S. cities prospered in the post-war boom, the fortunes and population of Scranton (and the rest of Lackawanna and Luzerne Counties) began to diminish. Coal production and rail traffic declined rapidly throughout the 1950s. In 1952, the Laurel Line ceased passenger service. The Scranton Transit Company, whose trolleys had given the city its nickname, transferred all operations to buses as the 1954 holiday season approached. In 1955, some eastern and southern parts of the city were destroyed by the floods of Hurricane Diane, and 80 lives were lost. The NYO&W Railroad, which depended heavily on its Scranton branch for freight traffic, was abandoned in 1957.[citation needed]


The Knox Mine Disaster of January 1959 all but erased the mining industry in Northeastern Pennsylvania. The event eliminated thousands of jobs as the waters of the Susquehanna River flooded the mines.[5][6] The DL&W Railroad, nearly bankrupt by the drop in coal traffic and the effects of Hurricane Diane, merged with the Erie Railroad in 1960. Scranton had been the hub of its operations until the Erie Lackawanna merger, when it was no longer needed in this capacity; it was another severe blow to the labor market. Mine subsidence was a spreading problem in the city as pillar supports in abandoned mines began to fail; cave-ins sometimes consumed entire blocks of homes. The area was then scarred by abandoned coal mining structures, strip mines, and massive culm dumps. During the 1960s and 1970s, the silk and other textile industries shrunk as jobs moved south or overseas.[citation needed]



"I don’t care if the federal government is telling me to buy my employees Jack Daniel’s or birth control. What gives them the right to tell me that I have to do that? That’s my issue, that’s what I object to, and that’s the beginning and end of the story."

This hint that Potter had merely swaddled an anti-government rant within a "religious" blanket illustrates the main problem with Justice Samuel Alito's majority opinion in Hobby Lobby: it takes claims of religious scruples for granted.

http://www.latimes.com/business/hiltzik/la-fi-mh-expanded-hobby-lobby-20140702-column.html#page=1
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2 years ago  ::  Jul 12, 2012 - 9:21AM #32
Bodean
Posts: 9,204

Jul 11, 2012 -- 10:09PM, Find1Answer wrote:

Jul 11, 2012 -- 9:39PM, Bodean wrote:


Jul 11, 2012 -- 7:59PM, Find1Answer wrote:


I have never been to Scranton,  I am just trying to figure this out.   wonder where all the money went.      


  





Find ... the answer is simple.  The economy went south in 2008.  Consumers pulled back ... houses got foreclosed.  Thus, you have a significant decrease in revenue to the city.  The City had in place a lot of perks negotiated into place by previous City Admins .... those liabilities cost money, money that was "assumed" to exist in the future as tax revenue to the city.  Those tax revenues have not materialized due to decreased consummerism and property collections.


Now ..this is Rush talking, so take it for what you think it is worth, but it sounds plausible [given that Rush "Reads" most of his material" ... this was sourced, so it's not pure adlib.  Consultants allegedly convinced the banks to not loan money to the city unless a recovery plan was in place ... the recovery plan was a 78% increase on businesses.  The Mayor and City Council bauked at that ... so the banks didn't loan them the money.


Further, per caller, and he is right on the money, the future of Scranton, which is in the middle of Coal Country, is not a very bright future under Obama, who through his EPA is working to close all Coal Plants.


What's a guy to do??  He has no money.  The Banks won't lend him the money.  AND .. a significant source of revenue to the area is being systematically dismantled by the Obama administration.  Doesn't leave him much choice.  Either file bankruptcy, or cut payouts.




I read that the council wanted to borrow and the mayor wanted to tax and then the council did not borrow.    like Rush stated.   that is the standoff between the council and the mayor  regardless they were out of money anyway.    I think I read that the mayor has held office for over 10 years.      As far as the police dept goes I do not see unreasonable benefits.    I donno maybe cities should just hire contract labor.


according to wiki Scranton has not been in the coal business since the late fifties.     Most coal fired plants are looking to natural gas and the natural gas lobby has been driving the nail in coal's coffin for a very long time.   Obama did not ride in on his horse and do all that and if you are claiming it is Obama killing the coal industry then he is doing it for big oil and gas lobby in addition to the enviromentalists.         


After World War II, coal lost favor to oil and natural gas. While some U.S. cities prospered in the post-war boom, the fortunes and population of Scranton (and the rest of Lackawanna and Luzerne Counties) began to diminish. Coal production and rail traffic declined rapidly throughout the 1950s. In 1952, the Laurel Line ceased passenger service. The Scranton Transit Company, whose trolleys had given the city its nickname, transferred all operations to buses as the 1954 holiday season approached. In 1955, some eastern and southern parts of the city were destroyed by the floods of Hurricane Diane, and 80 lives were lost. The NYO&W Railroad, which depended heavily on its Scranton branch for freight traffic, was abandoned in 1957.[citation needed]


The Knox Mine Disaster of January 1959 all but erased the mining industry in Northeastern Pennsylvania. The event eliminated thousands of jobs as the waters of the Susquehanna River flooded the mines.[5][6] The DL&W Railroad, nearly bankrupt by the drop in coal traffic and the effects of Hurricane Diane, merged with the Erie Railroad in 1960. Scranton had been the hub of its operations until the Erie Lackawanna merger, when it was no longer needed in this capacity; it was another severe blow to the labor market. Mine subsidence was a spreading problem in the city as pillar supports in abandoned mines began to fail; cave-ins sometimes consumed entire blocks of homes. The area was then scarred by abandoned coal mining structures, strip mines, and massive culm dumps. During the 1960s and 1970s, the silk and other textile industries shrunk as jobs moved south or overseas.[citation needed]







Yes Find .. I'm aware that the Natural Gas industry is pushing hard for its product, and Coal has been on the decrease for decades, peaking back in 1933.  But .. that doesn't erase the fact that Obama's EPA policies are not a future disincentive for coal.


I also heard the story of the dispute between the Mayor and the Council.  That is not necessarily inconsistent with what Rush noted.  The Banks would not lend the money without a recovery plan, the Mayor's recovery plan was a 78% tax increase on business, the Council said no, that won't work ... Thus, the Council did not borrow money because the Banks would not lend them money ... result, the Mayor and everyone else gets to work for minimum wage.

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2 years ago  ::  Jul 12, 2012 - 6:34PM #33
Iwantamotto
Posts: 8,039

Scranton should immediately cut all taxes.  I hear that's how government has money to run.

Knock and the door shall open.  It's not my fault if you don't like the decor.
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2 years ago  ::  Jul 12, 2012 - 7:06PM #34
Mlyons619
Posts: 16,336

Really?


I don't think the problem is raising taxes.  I think the problem is that the City Government avoided making the hard choice of BUDGET CONSTRAINT until it bit 'em hard in the @ss.


San Bernardino, Stockton, Mammoth Lake, Harrisburg, Boise, and other communities, are all finding that out-of-control spending and lack of foresight in budget planning, have put the citizens they serve at risk.   

"No freedom without education"
            --Thomas Jefferson

"NOBODY expects the Spanish Inquisition"
            -- Monty Python
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2 years ago  ::  Jul 12, 2012 - 10:21PM #35
Bodean
Posts: 9,204

Jul 12, 2012 -- 7:06PM, Mlyons619 wrote:


Really?


I don't think the problem is raising taxes.  I think the problem is that the City Government avoided making the hard choice of BUDGET CONSTRAINT until it bit 'em hard in the @ss.


San Bernardino, Stockton, Mammoth Lake, Harrisburg, Boise, and other communities, are all finding that out-of-control spending and lack of foresight in budget planning, have put the citizens they serve at risk.   





Yup .. I think the Public Union is about to be handed its papers.  ALL of the problems are because of public unions.  50% of Long Islands budget goes to pay for UNION perks. .. and they are highest taxes area in the US.

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2 years ago  ::  Jul 12, 2012 - 10:34PM #36
REteach
Posts: 14,169

Jul 12, 2012 -- 6:34PM, Iwantamotto wrote:


Scranton should immediately cut all taxes.  I hear that's how government has money to run.




Yep. I want my streets plowed and my potholes fixed for free. 

I know you believe you understand what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize what you heard was not what I meant...
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2 years ago  ::  Jul 12, 2012 - 10:39PM #37
amcolph
Posts: 17,131

Jul 12, 2012 -- 10:21PM, Bodean wrote:




Yup .. I think the Public Union is about to be handed its papers.  ALL of the problems are because of public unions.  50% of Long Islands budget goes to pay for UNION perks. .. and they are highest taxes area in the US.




Probably not a bad idea, but remember this:


Unions are largely reactionary organizations.  All--and I mean all--of the union job actions I have ever been part of or known anything about started over working conditions, not pay and benefits.


What it boils down to is, you can treat us like $h*t if that's what's important to you, but you're going to have to pay us more money.


And the way you go on about the 'lower orders' I would say that was what is important to you.

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2 years ago  ::  Jul 12, 2012 - 11:58PM #38
Erey
Posts: 18,369

Jul 12, 2012 -- 10:39PM, amcolph wrote:


Jul 12, 2012 -- 10:21PM, Bodean wrote:




Yup .. I think the Public Union is about to be handed its papers.  ALL of the problems are because of public unions.  50% of Long Islands budget goes to pay for UNION perks. .. and they are highest taxes area in the US.




Probably not a bad idea, but remember this:


Unions are largely reactionary organizations.  All--and I mean all--of the union job actions I have ever been part of or known anything about started over working conditions, not pay and benefits.


What it boils down to is, you can treat us like $h*t if that's what's important to you, but you're going to have to pay us more money.


And the way you go on about the 'lower orders' I would say that was what is important to you.




 


I don't "blame" unions.  Unions are just like any other special interest group out there, just like the NRA or a corporation that wants resource access or the Sierra Club whatever.  They all have a narrow agenda. They will ask for the moon and take as much as they can get.  They don't concern themselves as much in how their requests/demands will effect the larger industry or environment or any of that.  They are pretty much there to advocate for there particular advancement.  Any of this is fine if there are good elected representatives that will consider the larger picture and keep an eye to sustainability and larger consequences.  But somehow it behooves the representatives to sign off on crap like you can retire with benefits after only 5 years of employment, etc. 

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2 years ago  ::  Jul 13, 2012 - 10:05AM #39
Bodean
Posts: 9,204

Jul 12, 2012 -- 10:39PM, amcolph wrote:


Jul 12, 2012 -- 10:21PM, Bodean wrote:




Yup .. I think the Public Union is about to be handed its papers.  ALL of the problems are because of public unions.  50% of Long Islands budget goes to pay for UNION perks. .. and they are highest taxes area in the US.




Probably not a bad idea, but remember this:


Unions are largely reactionary organizations.  All--and I mean all--of the union job actions I have ever been part of or known anything about started over working conditions, not pay and benefits.


What it boils down to is, you can treat us like $h*t if that's what's important to you, but you're going to have to pay us more money.


And the way you go on about the 'lower orders' I would say that was what is important to you.





Good for you Amcoph ... I don't know of a single Union Action in the PUBLIC SECTOR that orginated from working conditions.  ALL I see are protections and perks.


I don't have a problem with Private Unions ... but there is no place for public unions .. even FDR, the god of liberalism saw that to be the conflict of interests that it is.  And these city issues, and eve some state issues ... are about PUBLIC UNIONS ... not private unions focused on working conditions, etc.

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2 years ago  ::  Jul 13, 2012 - 11:30AM #40
Find1Answer
Posts: 7,253

Jul 12, 2012 -- 10:21PM, Bodean wrote:

Jul 12, 2012 -- 7:06PM, Mlyons619 wrote:


Really?


I don't think the problem is raising taxes.  I think the problem is that the City Government avoided making the hard choice of BUDGET CONSTRAINT until it bit 'em hard in the @ss.


San Bernardino, Stockton, Mammoth Lake, Harrisburg, Boise, and other communities, are all finding that out-of-control spending and lack of foresight in budget planning, have put the citizens they serve at risk.   





Yup .. I think the Public Union is about to be handed its papers.  ALL of the problems are because of public unions.  50% of Long Islands budget goes to pay for UNION perks. .. and they are highest taxes area in the US.


Why are the problems because of public union.    What are the union perks?    The article says that the liabilities are many years  in the making.      Is health insurance a perk.   Is a pension a perk?    


I know that many entities turned the pension money over to Wall Street and many funds were decimated in the crash.    Is this why the pensions are under funded?    Was it the union that held the pension funds or was the city investing the funds.     I guess I want to know specifically how or why a public union is responsible for all the problems in Rhode Island or even Scranton?     just trying to understand this public union argument being responsible for All the problems.   


 


 

"I don’t care if the federal government is telling me to buy my employees Jack Daniel’s or birth control. What gives them the right to tell me that I have to do that? That’s my issue, that’s what I object to, and that’s the beginning and end of the story."

This hint that Potter had merely swaddled an anti-government rant within a "religious" blanket illustrates the main problem with Justice Samuel Alito's majority opinion in Hobby Lobby: it takes claims of religious scruples for granted.

http://www.latimes.com/business/hiltzik/la-fi-mh-expanded-hobby-lobby-20140702-column.html#page=1
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