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Switch to Forum Live View What is a person's "true identity"? - The case of Andreij Pshenichnikov
2 years ago  ::  Jun 18, 2012 - 5:58PM #21
Miraj
Posts: 5,020

Jun 18, 2012 -- 12:10PM, LeahOne wrote:


OK, Miraj - which are the Arab countries where a Jewish man can wear a kippah, etc and not be a target of negative attention?


Or did I misunderstand your post?





I don't think you misunderstood.  Why do you think that there are no Arab countries where no one cares who's Jewish or what they wear?

Disclaimer: The opinions of this member are not primarily informed by western ethnocentric paradigms, stereotypes rooted in anti-Muslim/Islam hysteria, "Israel can do no wrong" intransigence, or the perceived need to protect the Judeo-Christian world from invading foreign religions and legal concepts.  By expressing such views, no inherent attempt is being made to derail or hijack threads, but that may be the result.  The result is not the responsibility of this member.


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2 years ago  ::  Jun 18, 2012 - 6:47PM #22
CharikIeia
Posts: 8,301

Jun 18, 2012 -- 6:40AM, shmuelgoldstein wrote:


Jun 17, 2012 -- 9:39AM, CharikIeia wrote:


Why would "being Jewish" be a "true identity", while "being a construction worker in Deheishe" would not?



Being a construction worker in Deheishe is an "identity" of what a person is!?


That's just what a person does for a living, that's all. That's not what he IS.



Would you be so kind to to elaborate this?


I don't understand it. But this touches exactly on what I'd like to talk about here!


Isn't a Jew a person who follows Jewish customs, i.e. does something?

tl;dr
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 18, 2012 - 7:07PM #23
LeahOne
Posts: 16,124

Jun 18, 2012 -- 5:58PM, Miraj wrote:


Jun 18, 2012 -- 12:10PM, LeahOne wrote:


OK, Miraj - which are the Arab countries where a Jewish man can wear a kippah, etc and not be a target of negative attention?


Or did I misunderstand your post?





I don't think you misunderstood.  Why do you think that there are no Arab countries where no one cares who's Jewish or what they wear?




Certainly NOT because all the other Arab people are so fond of the Palestinians as so many of their politicians continually inform us!


And not because of any 'Occupation', either - unless one means by that, the existance of an Israel of any size in any location.



 

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 19, 2012 - 5:00AM #24
NahumS
Posts: 1,707

Jun 18, 2012 -- 6:47PM, CharikIeia wrote:


Jun 18, 2012 -- 6:40AM, shmuelgoldstein wrote:


Jun 17, 2012 -- 9:39AM, CharikIeia wrote:


Why would "being Jewish" be a "true identity", while "being a construction worker in Deheishe" would not?



Being a construction worker in Deheishe is an "identity" of what a person is!?


That's just what a person does for a living, that's all. That's not what he IS.



Would you be so kind to to elaborate this?


I don't understand it. But this touches exactly on what I'd like to talk about here!


Isn't a Jew a person who follows Jewish customs, i.e. does something?





A Jew is someone whose mother is Jewish or has converted to Judaism. Whatever he does (or doesn't do) does not determine his status.


Just like a German is one who has German citizenship - whether he speaks German or not, whether he votes or drinks beer or not.


You may choose to put a mezuzah on your door, visit the synagogue and eat matzah on Passover. That wouldn't make you a Jew.


There are Jews whose lives and practice are bereft of any Jewish traditions or observances. They are not observant or traditional Jews - they could be called assimilated Jews. But they are Jews nevertheless.


Many of the Russian Jews who have immigrated to Israel fall into that category. Most learn Hebrew and begin to celebrate Jewish festivals in Israel. Most give their sons a circumcision (which was once forbidden in the USSR). Some become observant Jews, others don't. But, like it says in an old Yiddish song "vos mir zeinen, yidn zeinen mir" - whatever we are, we are Jews.


I think that this fellow just doesn't want to be an Israeli, and he feels more comfortable among Arabs. As far as I'm concerned, he can live in Dehaishe. If he is involved with illegal activities (throwing stones, belonging to a terrorist organization) let him sit in jail. No doubt, he'll have the company of likeminded people there.

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 19, 2012 - 7:38AM #25
CharikIeia
Posts: 8,301

Jun 19, 2012 -- 5:00AM, NahumS wrote:


A Jew is someone whose mother is Jewish or has converted to Judaism. Whatever he does (or doesn't do) does not determine his status.


Just like a German is one who has German citizenship - whether he speaks German or not, whether he votes or drinks beer or not.


You may choose to put a mezuzah on your door, visit the synagogue and eat matzah on Passover. That wouldn't make you a Jew.



So, one's "true identity" is a myth, a tale, a social construction?


Why would that matter more than what one actually does in this world?


And to whom?


(I'm not actually trying to be provocative here, but it is something that I really cannot understand in any meaningful sense. In Christianity, we have the same issue in some churches - e.g., my own Lutheran denomination assumes that being baptised or not matters in some decisive way that can at best be explained in reference to yet more social construction & assumptions about an unverifiable afterlife... i.e., stories we've told each other for many centuries.)


Btw, I appreciate the Yiddish very much! It's a wonderful language, and in my reading has this very special East-European flavour, this tension between melancholy and resignation and longing that comes right from the heart. But then, I may have a very literary perspective on it...

tl;dr
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 19, 2012 - 7:55AM #26
ted08721
Posts: 3,751

Jun 18, 2012 -- 12:14PM, LeahOne wrote:


Ted:  You've asserted that 'normal-thinking' people would share the views you've expressed.


Please let us know your particular qualifications for determining what is 'normal thinking', and show us some form of documentation that your assertion is valid.


Otherwise, of course, your allegations are merely an 'undercover' form of name-calling:  opinion is not the same thing as fact.





When almost the entire world is in agreement except for a couple of fascist countries and a couple of very tiny countries that are beholding to those fascist states

donemmerichnotes.blogspot.com/2011/04/pe...

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 19, 2012 - 8:27AM #27
LeahOne
Posts: 16,124

Ah, the old 'appeal to numbers' (ie. "almost everyone else believes it") , combined with a lame attempt at 'give a dog a bad name and hang it' (the 'fascist' slanders).  Topped off with an account of ONE UNGA vote on ONE proposal....


It's interesting that that particular UN vote refers ONLY to the illegal 'seizure' of "East Jerusalem" in '67 - and completely ignores the equally illegal seizure of the same area in `48 by Jordan - along with the ethnic cleansing of the ***INDIGENOUS*** population at that time, by Jordan which of course has absolutely NO right to touch a single hair on any Jerusalemite's head.


While I agree one must decide to start somewhere - starting in '67 is not anything I've ever agreed to, and I cannot see why.


A far more logical starting place would be the division of the Mandate into two areas - now if the Pals want to declare their state *alongside* Israel, and then negotiate with the Israelis to tidy up any border inefficiencies, that'd be fine.  Of course, my opinion has little weight since I'm not an Israeli.


 

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 19, 2012 - 8:32AM #28
LeahOne
Posts: 16,124

Ted, I was unaware that either Australia or Canada were 'fascist' states.  I find that so very unlikely as to decide that you presenting yourself as an example of political acumen is risible, extremely so.


Well, I'm off to the DMV in a few minutes, followed by a session split between our health insurance provider and the Commonwealth in which we  live..... don't know how I can stand so much fun packed into one morning!

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 21, 2012 - 5:05AM #29
shmuelgoldstein
Posts: 2,251

Jun 18, 2012 -- 6:47PM, CharikIeia wrote:


Jun 18, 2012 -- 6:40AM, shmuelgoldstein wrote:


Jun 17, 2012 -- 9:39AM, CharikIeia wrote:


Why would "being Jewish" be a "true identity", while "being a construction worker in Deheishe" would not?



Being a construction worker in Deheishe is an "identity" of what a person is!?


That's just what a person does for a living, that's all. That's not what he IS.



Would you be so kind to to elaborate this?


I don't understand it. But this touches exactly on what I'd like to talk about here!


Isn't a Jew a person who follows Jewish customs, i.e. does something?




I had thought it was obvious.


But here goes: The essence of a person consists of physical, mental, and emotional characteristics, and how he conducts himself and what he chooses to do and not do, regardless of monetary gain. What a person does for a living in many cases is just a technical issue that he needs to do to get money (office manager, accountant, engineer, etc). In this case, a person's "identity" is what he makes it. Is he a family man? Is she a homemaker? Is he religious or not? Which religion? Or anti-religious? Is he an arty person? Is he liberal? Is she kind of right-wing? Languagues he knows? There are other things that a person is born with: Ethnic background?  Other physical characteristics? Gender? Gender identity? Sexual preference? And on and on. And none of this has to do with the person's job.


However, there are indeed some jobs in which the practioner invests not only time but some level of emotional commitment, and can be considered to at least partly identify the person. Doctor, policeman, teacher, politician, for example.


A good yardstick IMO as to what *is* a person is to see what he does on the weekend, or when he's unemployed, or when he retires.

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 21, 2012 - 5:08AM #30
shmuelgoldstein
Posts: 2,251

Jun 18, 2012 -- 5:58PM, Miraj wrote:

 Why do you think that there are no Arab countries where no one cares who's Jewish or what they wear?



Well, I am not aware of any Arab country in which a Jew can walk around freely with no real fear of molestation while he is wearing a kippa or any other object that identifies him as a Jew.


But then again, maybe I'm missing something here. If you are aware of examples, I would love to see them. Preferably with pictures and links.

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