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Switch to Forum Live View Was America Always a Christian Nation?
2 days ago  ::  Jun 30, 2015 - 12:45AM #791
El Cid
Posts: 2,216

Jun 20, 2015 -- 2:59AM, Roymond wrote:


ec: So if we bake someone a cake praising gay "marriage" we are endorsing a lie


you: No smarm quotes needed on the word marriage. And, our marriages are NOT a "lie". They may well be a "sin" in YOUR faith, but we don't all GO to your church, and everyone has freedom to believe what they will.


How do you know that they are not a lie? Why are all humans anatomically heterosexual? Of course, you have the right to believe whatever you want, and you have the right like several homosexual owned bakeries on the west coast, to refuse to bake a cake condemning gay marriage. No one should be forced to endorse things that they believe are wrong. Would you force a black baker to bake a cake praising the KKK or putting a Confederate flag on a cake? Would you force a jew to bake a cake praising Adolf Hitler or for his birthday celebration?


you: Your post demonstrates that religionism poisons everything it touches, and that religion-induced prejudices are corrosive to a civilized society.


Actually Christians have produced almost everything good about Western Civilization, including the founding of the USA.


you: Why can't Christians be civil anymore?


How is politely refusing to bake a specific type of cake uncivil? They said that they would bake any other cake for gay person. Just not a gay wedding cake. Several of them had already been serving gays for years.


ec: But none of these companies refuse ordinary service to gays.


you: Pure and unadulterated bullshit. Observably so. Shame on you for your incessant bearing of false witness.


 
ec:No, it is  demonstrably true, look it up, the 70ish old lady that owned the flower shop was actually a friend of the gay man that she refused wedding service to. Provide evidence that ANY of these shops said that they would refuse ordinary service such as birthday cakes to gays.


roy: You don't get it, do you?


They are being Pharisees, refusing to render unto Caesar what is Caesar's.  Business activity falls into the realm of Caesar, and Caesar demands that all be treated equally.



See my post above about the Christian German gas maker. Sometimes it is bad to obey the government's laws.



roy: Why do you champion bigotry, and spit on Christ's words?  You draw lines just as the Pharisees did, setting aside mercy and love by claiming you're doing something holy!  A birthday cake, a wedding cake -- it's a cake, in a business transaction.  Baking a wedding cake is ordinary service; you engage in hypocrisy and hate by calling it different.



No, bigotry is treating someone unequally because of WHO they ARE, these people were treating them differently because of what they wanted to DO. There is a very significant difference. Even criminals should not be punished for who they are, only for what they have done. See my post above again about the nazi gas transaction. God does not want us to call good what is evil and what is evil, good. This is taught multiple times in the bible.



roy: Due to your incredible bigotry, I retreat from my earlier position that owners who are the only workers in their businesses should be allowed to make religious exceptions:  because you putrify the Gospel by trumping it with your Law, it is encumbent on me for the defense of the Gospel to deny even a permissible thing, since it endorses an impermissible thing.



Exactly, you don't want to endorse an impermissible thing, neither do these Christian brothers and sisters, why do you want to deny them something that even you feel the need to be free to do? BTW, How do you determine what is impermissible?



roy: This, BTW, is why we have the Second Amendment:  to make a final stand against the sort of tyranny you espouse.  It is not merely a God-given privilege, but a duty to stand against such as you.  Be assured, my arms are ready to stop you if you begin to be a threat rather than a nuisance.  In the meantime, I counter your fleshly Law-love with the Gospel, the only power commended to us, and rebuke the desire to apply coercion to others.  When you do that in His name, it is blasphemy.




This is why we have the First Amendment, the free exercise clause, true Christians don't just practice their faith in a church building or in their house, we are commanded to go out to the outside world and try to be salt and light in a dark world. Why do you want to stop your fellow christians from trying to carry out this command of Christ's?

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1 day ago  ::  Jun 30, 2015 - 6:07PM #792
TPaine
Posts: 9,742

Jun 30, 2015 -- 12:45AM, El Cid wrote:


No, bigotry is treating someone unequally because of WHO they ARE, these people were treating them differently because of what they wanted to DO. There is a very significant difference. Even criminals should not be punished for who they are, only for what they have done. See my post above again about the nazi gas transaction. God does not want us to call good what is evil and what is evil, good. This is taught multiple times in the bible.



First, let's define bigotry.

bigotry
noun,
1. stubborn and complete intolerance of any creed, belief, or opinion that differs from one's own.
2. the actions, beliefs, prejudices, etc., of a bigot.
Dictionary.com Unabridged
Based on the Random House Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2015.


The definition seems to make the term bigot, more expansive than what you say it is. As I've explained multiple times the role of government is to punish those whose actions harm others, not to punish those whose beliefs are different than someone else's. I would not provide poison gas to a government that plans to use it to kill innocent people just because their beliefs are different than mine. A couple in love that wants to get married and spend their lives together harms no one regardless of the couples genders. I am not a Christian, therefore I don't accept the Christian Bible as my law book. I follow the Ethic of Reciprocity, which Christians call the Golden Rule, but is something found in almost all organized religions as well as philosophy and humanism many of which existed long before the Bible was written.


Jun 30, 2015 -- 12:45AM, El Cid wrote:

Exactly, you don't want to endorse an impermissible thing, neither do these Christian brothers and sisters, why do you want to deny them something that even you feel the need to be free to do? BTW, How do you determine what is impermissible?


By refusing to serve someone who plans to do something that you disapprove of although it harms mo one fit the definition of bigotry perfectly.



Jun 30, 2015 -- 12:45AM, El Cid wrote:

This is why we have the First Amendment, the free exercise clause, true Christians don't just practice their faith in a church building or in their house, we are commanded to go out to the outside world and try to be salt and light in a dark world. Why do you want to stop your fellow christians from trying to carry out this command of Christ's?



The free exercise clause of the 1st Amendment was added to insure that all religions including that some people don't approve of such as Islam, Wicca, Asatru, Druidism, Satanism, and various American Indian religions. Free exercise does not allow people to violate the law and claim that their religion allows them do do it. To use your question, should I be allowed under the free exercise clause to kill Jews in a gas chamber because my religion tell me it is my duty to do so?

"The circumstances of the world are continually changing, and the opinions of man change also; and as government is for the living, and not for the dead, it is the living only that has any right in it." -- Thomas Paine: Rights of Man (1791)
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2 hours ago  ::  Jul 01, 2015 - 11:55PM #793
El Cid
Posts: 2,216

Jun 20, 2015 -- 1:37PM, Do_unto_others wrote:


ec: So if we bake someone a cake praising gay "marriage" we are endorsing a lie


you: No smarm quotes needed on the word marriage. And, our marriages are NOT a "lie". They may well be a "sin" in YOUR faith, but we don't all GO to your church, and everyone has freedom to believe what they will.


ec: How do you know that they are not a lie?


you: Because I am IN ONE.



Many people strongly think that there is no God, but that is a lie, too. What is your evidence that you are married?




Jun 20, 2015 -- 1:06AM, El Cid wrote:

ec: Why are all humans anatomically heterosexual?


you: That is an absurd statrement on its face.




What is absurd about it? Careful study of the human sexual organs of each sex shows that they are obviously designed for each other. The vagina is shaped just the right shape to receive the male organ and it has thick muscular walls to prevent the male organ from damaging it. It has cilia inside to paddle the male sperm toward the eggs and there are other designs that could be mentioned.

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