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Switch to Forum Live View Was America Always a Christian Nation?
19 hours ago  ::  Mar 30, 2015 - 9:28AM #471
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Mar 30, 2015 -- 12:24AM, El Cid wrote:

Before political correctness, did you know they determined whether a country was civilized by how much the society operated according to Judeo-Christian principles? BTW, conservative christians are not trying to restore the old hebrew theocracy which I think is what you fear.

Who cares about Hebrew theocracy any more?

What we fear is the return of Evangelical Protestantism to the egregious status of de facto state religion which it enjoyed in the 19th and early 20th century.

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19 hours ago  ::  Mar 30, 2015 - 9:30AM #472
Posts: 19,072

Mar 30, 2015 -- 12:00AM, El Cid wrote:

ec; No, but it cheapens marriage and makes it bascially meaningless and hurts the survival of our nation as the studies above have shown.

amc: No, it doesn't do any of those things except in the fevered brains of the sexually perverted.

Fraid so, if it can mean two people of the same sex it can mean anything.

Only to the sexually disturbed.  Normal people know better.

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6 hours ago  ::  Mar 30, 2015 - 10:15PM #473
Posts: 2,155

Mar 30, 2015 -- 9:25AM, amcolph wrote:

Mar 30, 2015 -- 12:32AM, El Cid wrote:

amc: What is God's law?

Well for a country like the US you would use principles derived from His moral laws which are primarily concentrated in the ten commandments and the moral teachings of Christ, but they are also located in other parts of the bible.

Why the Bible?  None of the moral precepts you have given so far as examples (except the sex stuff) are unique to it.

And according to whose interpretation?  Some of the leaders of your movement--Rushdoony, North, et al--think Mosaic law still should be in force.

amc: Who is to decide that?

Voters who are sympathetic with restoring our judeo-christian heritage.

Well, if you've got the votes go for it, but I don't think you will ever see your Evangelical Christianity restored to the false pride of place that it enjoyed in this country in the 19th and early 20th centuries.  Most of us (Christians and otherwise) can look back at that time and see that we are better off without it.

There's a superb essay by C. S. Lewis showing how legislating on the basis of religion is bad for Christianity, written on the occasion of Britain dropping the requirement for all students to attend chapel.  If I had a clue how to search for it, I'd see if it's available online.

The real irony here is that the people who want to legislate religious principles have the gall to call themselves "evangelicals".   The motive behind it is fleshly, a matter of seeking comfort in daily life by coercing others to conform to one's own views, since the Law cannot bring righteousness, and so a nation following righteous standards because they are coerced into doing so is not righteous, but hypocritical.  Indeed, a nation which appears to be righteous because behavior is under coercion is worse off than a nation with no law at all, because there is no way to tell if the people are actually righteous or just faking it because they are required to.  Thus, legislating one's religious morality is completely contrary to the Gospel, because it forces people who need the Gospel to act as though they are righteous when they aren't, thus feeding their self-righteousness and obscuring who actiually needs the Gospel.

A nation which appears righteous only because religious principles are legislated is the equivalent of wha Jesus called a whitewashed tomb.

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4 hours ago  ::  Mar 31, 2015 - 12:50AM #474
El Cid
Posts: 1,980

Mar 28, 2015 -- 11:32PM, Roymond wrote:

Mar 28, 2015 -- 8:02PM, El Cid wrote:

roy: The US is not a "biblically theistic" country.  It is a secular republic.  It was founded as a secular republic and may it ever remain so, despite whatever religion the majority of its citizens happens to be.

royStopping a theocracy would be a great reason to invoke the "Second Amendment Remedy".

ec: You seem to be implying that you would exteriminate using weapons conservative Christians that wanted to bring the country back to our founding judeo-christian principles. That sounds a little Stalinist. ALL countries are "theocracies" ie they have a "god" that is basis for their govenments laws. Humanist countries base their morality on what they think most humans want, countries based on evolutionary principles like Nazi Germany base their laws on what they think is the direction evolution should go, muslim countries base their laws on the laws of allah  and etc. I think you think that conservative Christians want to establish the old hebrew theocracy, but no that is false, Christ never commanded us to do that. That was only for the ancient hebrews not Christians. But we can use the moral principles revealed by God during that time and by Christ to make our nation a better place. And that is what the founders were trying to do when they founded our country on biblical principles.

roy: If "conservative" Christians get control of the government and start imposing "Christian"laws on the country, then yes, it will be time to start shooting the pastors and politicians imposing that tyranny on the United States.  That's not Stalinist, it's American:  the right of insurrection against tyranny.

How is God's law tyrannical? You seem to have a very warped view of God. He gave us freedom of conscience, the right to life and property, the best type of marriage and many other beautiflul concepts. From your avatar, I thought you were a Christian. But this post certainly does not seem very much like one a Christian would post.

God's law is tyrannical when it is not God's, but man's.

The Law we find in the Old Testament, every last bit ofit, has been fulfilled.  That means no one has to bow to it or serve it any more, becuase it has no more demands; those demands were filled up full by Jesus.

No, there are three types of law found in the OT, the civil law, the ceremonial law and the moral law. And Jesus fulfilled the first two, but the moral law is still valid and serves several purposes. Read I Timothy 1:8-10.

roy: To take ANY of that law and try to follow it is to submit yourself to the entire thing, which Paul points out is foolish, since it was a covenant of death because the Law brings death -- it cannot bring salvation.

That is correct it does not bring salvation but it can bring unbelievers to Christ when they see the benefits of living according to Gods morality also see the passage in I Timothy above. And for believers it is how we show love to God, remember Jesus said if you love me you will keep my commandments.

roy: We are left with this, from Christ, who from all that is in the Old Testament commended only this to us:  You shall love the Lord your GOd with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your might; and you shall love your neighbor as yourself.  Anyone advocating imposing anything more falls under the instructions of Jesus to sell everything and give it to the poor and to do nothing at all but follow Him, because that is the only form of obedience to the law that is of vaue -- except it isn't obedience to the law, really; it's throwing off the law and taking a new Master.

That is the Gospel.

No, the gospel is far more than that. How do we love God with all our heart? And How do we love our neighbor? The moral law tells us how to do those things, ie not to steal, not to covet their property, warn them about sex outside marriage, give to them if they are in need, and etc.

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