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Switch to Forum Live View Israel offers cash and a plane ticket to African migrants who willingly leave
2 years ago  ::  Jun 21, 2012 - 8:04PM #41
rocketjsquirell
Posts: 15,767

Miraj


Every country gets to set its own immigration policies. America prefers Americans, the UK prefers Brtis, the French prefer French, the Germans prefer Germans, the Greeks prefer Greeks. Why don't you have a problem with that?


Would anyone like to answer the questions?


How would you suggest Israel deal with the problem of illegal immigration? Is your suggestion the same for the USA? Is it the same for Europe? If not why not?

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 21, 2012 - 8:25PM #42
Miraj
Posts: 5,021

Jun 21, 2012 -- 8:04PM, rocketjsquirell wrote:


Miraj


Every country gets to set its own immigration policies. America prefers Americans, the UK prefers Brtis, the French prefer French, the Germans prefer Germans, the Greeks prefer Greeks. Why don't you have a problem with that?




Immigration isn't about citizens, it's about immigrants, so your comparison makes no sense.  Israel discriminates among immigrants on the basis of religion.  Arab nations that do that are vilified by the supporters of Israel's "right" to do that.  That's called "hypocrisy".

Disclaimer: The opinions of this member are not primarily informed by western ethnocentric paradigms, stereotypes rooted in anti-Muslim/Islam hysteria, "Israel can do no wrong" intransigence, or the perceived need to protect the Judeo-Christian world from invading foreign religions and legal concepts.  By expressing such views, no inherent attempt is being made to derail or hijack threads, but that may be the result.  The result is not the responsibility of this member.


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2 years ago  ::  Jun 21, 2012 - 8:56PM #43
rocketjsquirell
Posts: 15,767

No Miraj, All of those countries have preferences for immigration and all of those preferences relate to heritage. 


Try again, sunshine

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 21, 2012 - 9:06PM #44
Miraj
Posts: 5,021

Jun 21, 2012 -- 8:56PM, rocketjsquirell wrote:


No Miraj, All of those countries have preferences for immigration and all of those preferences relate to heritage. 


Try again, sunshine




I can only speak about the US because that is the one on the list with which I have first hand experience.  The US doesn't use preferences for heritage nor religion in its immigration process.  Having immigrated three husbands from three different non-western countries, that I know for sure.  Not to mention that part of the service my firm offers is involves immigration to the US, so, I meet and accomodate hundreds of immigrants from all over the world each year because of that.  The notion that the process in the US is anything like that of Israel is a demonstrable non-starter.  You can't honestly compare the US to the religious discrimination practiced by Israel.

Disclaimer: The opinions of this member are not primarily informed by western ethnocentric paradigms, stereotypes rooted in anti-Muslim/Islam hysteria, "Israel can do no wrong" intransigence, or the perceived need to protect the Judeo-Christian world from invading foreign religions and legal concepts.  By expressing such views, no inherent attempt is being made to derail or hijack threads, but that may be the result.  The result is not the responsibility of this member.


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2 years ago  ::  Jun 21, 2012 - 9:32PM #45
rocketjsquirell
Posts: 15,767

Miraj


wrong again, children of US citizens get automatic admission even if never in the US and even if citizens of another country. 


Ask your immigration people. 


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2 years ago  ::  Jun 21, 2012 - 10:09PM #46
Miraj
Posts: 5,021

Jun 21, 2012 -- 9:32PM, rocketjsquirell wrote:


Miraj


wrong again, children of US citizens get automatic admission even if never in the US and even if citizens of another country. 


Ask your immigration people. 




At some point, you're going to realize that you're not helping yourself at all, bro.  The children of US citizens are US citizens.  That's not what we're talking about in this thread.  Non-Israelis, like the Sudanese, who are not children of Israelis are distinquished from non-Jews, with the ones determined to be "most Jewish" getting the specific right to citizenship over non-Jews born within the borders of what was to become Israel in 1948.   You cannot compare US immigration to that; they bear no relationship to each other.  If you're not interested in what I'm telling you, you should get some other immigration lawyers to school you coz you're losing this one.


Court rules Judaism, not place of birth, is grounds for Israeli citizenship


Israeli court denies petition by anti-coercion activist to be recognized as Israeli without connection to Judaism, says citizenship is solely determined by law of return.


By Revital Hovel


The Haifa District Court on Tuesday rejected an appeal submitted by Professor Uzzi Ornan, who sought to compel Israel's Interior Ministry to recognize his citizenship based on the fact that he was born in Israel, rather than on the grounds that he was Jewish.


Ornan, a linguist and member of the Academy of the Hebrew Language, who is also the founder of the League against Religious Coercion in Israel, petitioned the Interior Ministry in 2010 to recognize him as an Israeli, not on grounds of being Jewish but because he was born in Israel.

In his ruling on Tuesday, Judge Daniel Fisch said that it was without a doubt that the petitioner, Prof Uzzi Ornan, was born to a Jewish mother, and was therefore Jewish, which the law of return states as the source of his citizenship.

"While the legislator's definition of 'Jew' was only added to the Law of Return in 1970," Fisch wrote, "the turn to the accepted Jewish halakhaic law is not a novelty, and an overview of the ruling preceding the amendment shows that any time that a man's Judaism needs to be determined, that source has not been overlooked."



Continued at the link.


Disclaimer: The opinions of this member are not primarily informed by western ethnocentric paradigms, stereotypes rooted in anti-Muslim/Islam hysteria, "Israel can do no wrong" intransigence, or the perceived need to protect the Judeo-Christian world from invading foreign religions and legal concepts.  By expressing such views, no inherent attempt is being made to derail or hijack threads, but that may be the result.  The result is not the responsibility of this member.


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2 years ago  ::  Jun 21, 2012 - 10:20PM #47
Miraj
Posts: 5,021

The state won't let that poor man stop being a Jew, but, I've mentioned that situation before in other threads.  Talk about forced conversion lol.

Disclaimer: The opinions of this member are not primarily informed by western ethnocentric paradigms, stereotypes rooted in anti-Muslim/Islam hysteria, "Israel can do no wrong" intransigence, or the perceived need to protect the Judeo-Christian world from invading foreign religions and legal concepts.  By expressing such views, no inherent attempt is being made to derail or hijack threads, but that may be the result.  The result is not the responsibility of this member.


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2 years ago  ::  Jun 22, 2012 - 12:03AM #48
Shusha
Posts: 4,510

Non-Israelis, like the Sudanese, who are not children of Israelis are distinquished from non-Jews, with the ones determined to be "most Jewish" getting the specific right to citizenship...



The Right of Return laws pertain to immigration but not specifically to citizenship.  


...over non-Jews born within the borders of what was to become Israel in 1948.



Place of birth is irrelevant to Israeli citizenship law.  For everyone.  As it is in most countries in the world.  This is just a strawman. 

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 22, 2012 - 1:42AM #49
Miraj
Posts: 5,021

Jun 22, 2012 -- 12:03AM, Shusha wrote:


Non-Israelis, like the Sudanese, who are not children of Israelis are distinquished from non-Jews, with the ones determined to be "most Jewish" getting the specific right to citizenship...



The Right of Return laws pertain to immigration but not specifically to citizenship.  


I said nothing about the Right of Return laws in that post.  But, let's look at the provisions under Israeli law concerning Jews who qualify for ROR. 


The Law of Return 5710-1950 confers the "right of aliyah" stating that "every Jew has the right to come to this country as an oleh" (Israel 5 July 1950, 1). The law defines oleh as "a Jew immigrating, into Israel" and aliyah as the "immigration of Jews" into Israel (ibid., Translator's Note). Amendment No. 2, 5730-1970, added in 1970, defines a Jew as "a person who was born of a Jewish mother or has become converted to Judaism and who is not a member of another religion" (ibid., 4B).


An oleh obtains Israeli citizenship upon arrival in Israel (Israel 1 Apr. 1952; ibid. 4 Aug. 1998; US Mar. 2001).


Further reading: www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Imm...


So, it does seem to cover both immigration and citizenship.


...over non-Jews born within the borders of what was to become Israel in 1948.



Place of birth is irrelevant to Israeli citizenship law.  For everyone.  As it is in most countries in the world.  This is just a strawman. 


Not a strawman at all.  My response to Rocky, from which that quote was plucked, did, afterall, refer to his reference to US immigration law in comparison with Israeli immigration law by Jewishness and heritage.  The US is one of the few countries in the world that does confer citizenship on those born on US soil regardless of the citizenship or heritage of the parents.  


In my responses to his assertion of comparisons, I referred to US citizenship acquired jus solis (by geographic location) or jus sanguinis (by blood relations).  The article I posted about the reluctant Jew made it clear that Israel doesn't confer citizenship on the basis of birthplace.


BTW, Israel grants automatic citizenship to non-Jewish spouses of Jews, which is neither jus solis or jus sanguinis; something the US doesn't do.


Not a strawman at all.





Disclaimer: The opinions of this member are not primarily informed by western ethnocentric paradigms, stereotypes rooted in anti-Muslim/Islam hysteria, "Israel can do no wrong" intransigence, or the perceived need to protect the Judeo-Christian world from invading foreign religions and legal concepts.  By expressing such views, no inherent attempt is being made to derail or hijack threads, but that may be the result.  The result is not the responsibility of this member.


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2 years ago  ::  Jun 22, 2012 - 9:53AM #50
rocketjsquirell
Posts: 15,767

Miraj


You really are not helping your argument.


The children of US citizens (Americans) are entitled to US citzenship in the United States (the state of Americans) in  the same way the children of Jews are entirtled to citizenship in the Jerwish State. There is no difference at all. 


In both cases those who descend from those with the national identity retain that national identity according to the nation in question which gets to make up its own rules. Easy peasy. 


Still wondering if anyone - especiaslly the critics of this policy - are going to answer the questions:


How would you suggest Israel deal with the problem of illegal immigration?


Is your suggestion the same for the USA?


Is it the same for Europe?


If not why not?

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