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Switch to Forum Live View Israel offers cash and a plane ticket to African migrants who willingly leave
2 years ago  ::  Jun 23, 2012 - 2:25AM #81
Shusha
Posts: 4,489

Me in black, Miraj in blue, Me in green


First, we need a climate of genuine acceptance and respect for the idea of the Jewish homeland, as a Jewish homeland.  It can not achieve this goal against a backdrop of hostility and negativity and anti-semitism. 


Good luck with that.  In more than 60 years, it hasn't happened because of the occupation, the way Israel came into being and the name-calling done when Israel is subjected to criticism.  No one's going to forget that any time soon. 


No one is asking anyone to forget anything.  We are just looking for a starting place here.  If your starting place is that there can NEVER be a Jewish homeland in the place where the Jewish homeland factually is, this can not work.  If your starting place is that there can NEVER be a Jewish homeland as defined by the Jewish people and according to their needs and desires, rather than the desires of others, this can not work.  If your starting place is that the Jewish people have no rights, this can not work.  Without the foundational idea of Jewish legitimacy as a nation, we can not go anywhere else. In other words, you can put conditions on how the idea becomes reality, but you can not put conditions on the idea itself and still have it work.


Second, if first is not immediately forthcoming, we need a worldwide acknowledgement of the NEED for a safe Jewish home.


Chalk that ongoing need up to poor long-term planning.


I am not entirely sure if you are being intentionally obtuse here.  The Jews have been subjected to near-continuous persecution for thousands of years; in every time, in every place, under every condition for no reason other than the fact that they are Jews.  Refuge has been difficult or impossible to obtain in many circumstances.  A peoples with this history needs a sense of safety.  For as long as it takes.


Third, we need a place for those who do not feel personally attached to the Jewish homeland to live comfortably in their own homogenous cultural group (ie Palestine).


What's needed is for Israel to become a nation, not a "Jewish homeland". Then, attachment would be no problem and an apartheid system wouldn't be required for the non-Jewish "homogenous cultural group".


Newsflash:  Israel already is a nation.  And its purpose is to be the Jewish homeland.  Still, I recognize that some people wont have an affinity for this and am saying, "Okay, lets make sure your needs for living within your national identity are also fulfilled."


Fourth, we need laws of equality to be legislated and enforced with respect to all citizens of Israel (Jewish or not) -- the preferential treatment MUST only in regards to immigration and must END within the country. 


Nope, not buying that.  If citizenship is based on preference from the start, it doesn't just stop there.


Sooner or later those who identify with the Jewish homeland will gravitate there. And those who don't, won't.  It won't be a problem if #'s 1,2, and 3 come to be. 


Personally, I think Israel does pretty good with #4 in theory, if not always in practice.  The difference between theory and practice has a lot to do with the other three. 


Try looking at the situation from a non-Jews point of view.  You would think differently.


I have tried.  I am trying.  I'm going to keep trying.  But again, I believe the failure of #4 has a large part to do with the failure of #'s 1, 2 and 3.  Israel is solely responsibile for #4.  But it can not achieve it the others alone.


I think Israel has attempted to bring about #3, without much success and has pretty much given up at this point. 


It should.  It's not its place to continue to separate people from their homeland on the basis of religous affiliation.


Israel is not seperating people from their homeland.  Israel has been trying to create a homeland for itself, and has been willing to acknowledge and accept that others (Jordinians, Palestinians) also would like a homeland in the disputed territories.  Israel has, in the past, been accommodating towards this.  The other side not so much.

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 23, 2012 - 2:43AM #82
Shusha
Posts: 4,489

He wants to renounce his state imposed "Jewishness", not his citizenship.


Again, no.  He wants to retain the right to Israeli citizenship while disregarding the thing that makes him an Israeli citizen.  He wants to change the conditions of his citizenship from jus sanguinis to jus soli.  Can't be done without changing the citizenship laws of Israel.   


And the state does not impose Jewishness upon him.  The state, at best, defines what Jewishness is with respect to citizenship. 


If you can name another state that won't let their citizens change their religion,


He is perfectly free to change his religion.  And hey, guess what?  He will still be an Israeli citizen if he does.  What he can not do is unilaterally change the definition of what Jewish means.


Non-Jews get citizenship without being Jewish, right?


They do!  That sounds suspicously like there might not be as much hypocrisy or intolerance as some would lead us to believe. 

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 23, 2012 - 2:51AM #83
habesor
Posts: 5,648

Miraj,


Every now and then we get a certain reversal of position from critics of Israel on these questions. A few months ago someone cited the Neturei Karta as true Jews while the Zionists were pretend Jews. Now we have someone arguing that the Zionists are too Jewish in their attitude towards citizenship. Neither has it right. In the State of Israel "Jew" is a national identity. The current court case wants to change that. The complainant wants his religion to be Jewish but his nationality to be something else. In Israel one can change their religion by conversion. You can become a Jew or a Muslim or a Christian. There is no law in Israel against converting to another religion. However, you are stuck with your national identity (which is different from your citizenship). This is the same as is the case in Spain, Greece, Japan, China, Germany and I suppose some other states as well.


And don't get up-tight because Jewish nationalism encompasses a religious element as well. Just take a good look at the symbols on the flag of Great Britain and the role of the British Queen and the Church of England. And, the next time you spend a dollar just take a close look to see in whom you trust.


Habesor

Habesor
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 23, 2012 - 7:26AM #84
CharikIeia
Posts: 8,301

Jun 23, 2012 -- 2:43AM, Shusha wrote:


He wants to renounce his state imposed "Jewishness", not his citizenship.


Again, no.  He wants to retain the right to Israeli citizenship while disregarding the thing that makes him an Israeli citizen.



So, the Arab citizens of Israel are Jews, you imply?

tl;dr
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 23, 2012 - 8:13AM #85
KindredSai
Posts: 5,490

What you, Miraj, and KSai are doing is creating a false dichotomy between Israelis and Jews and claiming religion as your dividing line.  The Jewish people are a cultural and ethnic people quite apart from the religion and as such claim a homeland. 



Nonsense.


Israelis can be Jews and Muslims. I have not disputed the Jewish connection to the land but it is no greater or lesser to non-Jews.


What you imply especially with Israeli immigration law, that Jews have a greater right to be an Israeli because they are Jewish, are you thus citing a doctrine in which Jews are a greater citizen than non-Jews?


In a Republic there is no such thing as a privilidged citizen. While Habesor maintained the excellent point that the UK has a cross, a State religion. We as British people do not divide on the basis of religion within our legislation whether it's immigration or otherwise.


Religion is the dividing line in Israel because when a Nation-State encompasses all religions, you make no distinction between a national rubric and a religious one giving room for exclusive rights and prejudice.

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 23, 2012 - 10:53AM #86
rocketjsquirell
Posts: 15,720

Jun 22, 2012 -- 7:04PM, KindredSai wrote:

Jun 22, 2012 -- 6:48PM, rocketjsquirell wrote:


Stop complaining about Israel's immigration policies as they concern illegal immigrants. If you do not like them, you could at least answer the questions:


How would you suggest Israel deal with the problem of illegal immigration?


Is your suggestion the same for the USA?


Is it the same for Europe?


If not why not?


If you have nothing to add to the discussion, why are you discussing the question?  




Rocket,


The reason why I don't like Israel's immigration policies are because they are inherently prejudice.


Secondly to do with illegal immigrants, apply a just law to them.


As somebody with a background in immigration and border agency, every individual is different, there maybe reasons for asylum, there maybe not.




KS



OK you disagree with the policy. What should the policy be? Is your suggested policy the same for the US? For the UK where you live? For Europe? If not, why not?


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2 years ago  ::  Jun 23, 2012 - 1:31PM #87
Miraj
Posts: 5,021

Jun 23, 2012 -- 7:26AM, CharikIeia wrote:


Jun 23, 2012 -- 2:43AM, Shusha wrote:


He wants to renounce his state imposed "Jewishness", not his citizenship.


Again, no.  He wants to retain the right to Israeli citizenship while disregarding the thing that makes him an Israeli citizen.



So, the Arab citizens of Israel are Jews, you imply?




If we're not Jewish Israelis, we must, then, be Dhimmi citizens, since being a Jewish Israeli is so precious that there is a law to impose "Jewishness" on Israelis who don't want it.  It's not like this man woke up one day deciding he didn't want to be Jewish anymore.  He's insisted that he's not Jewish since before day 1.  However, and I mentioned this before, it is against the law in Israel for a Jew to not be a Jew, on of the many burdens that Jewish Israelis have.  This court ruling is just the latest illustration of it.

Disclaimer: The opinions of this member are not primarily informed by western ethnocentric paradigms, stereotypes rooted in anti-Muslim/Islam hysteria, "Israel can do no wrong" intransigence, or the perceived need to protect the Judeo-Christian world from invading foreign religions and legal concepts.  By expressing such views, no inherent attempt is being made to derail or hijack threads, but that may be the result.  The result is not the responsibility of this member.


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2 years ago  ::  Jun 23, 2012 - 2:56PM #88
Shusha
Posts: 4,489

Jun 23, 2012 -- 7:26AM, CharikIeia wrote:


Jun 23, 2012 -- 2:43AM, Shusha wrote:


He wants to renounce his state imposed "Jewishness", not his citizenship.


Again, no.  He wants to retain the right to Israeli citizenship while disregarding the thing that makes him an Israeli citizen.



So, the Arab citizens of Israel are Jews, you imply?





Of course not. Again, I wonder if you are being intentionally obtuse.


Neither Jewish citizens nor Arab citizens of Israel have citizenship because of geographical birth. 

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 23, 2012 - 3:01PM #89
Shusha
Posts: 4,489

What you imply especially with Israeli immigration law, that Jews have a greater right to be an Israeli because they are Jewish, are you thus citing a doctrine in which Jews are a greater citizen than non-Jews?



I am not.  In fact, I specifically stated the opposite. 


Instead of being provocative, why don't you go back and address the four points I laid out in my previous post.

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 23, 2012 - 3:14PM #90
Shusha
Posts: 4,489

...since being a Jewish Israeli is so precious that there is a law to impose "Jewishness" on Israelis who don't want it.  It's not like this man woke up one day deciding he didn't want to be Jewish anymore.  He's insisted that he's not Jewish since before day 1.  However, and I mentioned this before, it is against the law in Israel for a Jew to not be a Jew, on of the many burdens that Jewish Israelis have.  This court ruling is just the latest illustration of it.



Miraj, 


Again, the state and the state's laws do not impose Jewishness.  They define it and acknowledge that it exists.  He is asking to remain an Israeli citizen based on jus soli -- which is not applicable in Israeli law. He can't have what he is asking for because it would violate Israeli law.  



If we're not Jewish Israelis, we must, then, be Dhimmi citizens,


I said no such thing.  In fact, I said the opposite and quite clearly.  It is highly offensive to me that you would imply I made such a statement.  It would be appropriate for you to apologize for attempting to tarnish my character in this manner.  Instead of spreading lies about my belief system, you should address my actual comments, please. 




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