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Switch to Forum Live View Norwegian and German polls: ISRAEL IS A HOSTILE ENEMY
3 years ago  ::  Jun 17, 2012 - 5:18PM #41
Roodog
Posts: 10,168

Jun 15, 2012 -- 6:39AM, Dostojevsky wrote:


Vra, remember reading this yesterday and luckily found it just above.


You said: '.. in some countries, such as when I was in Poland in 1991, there's a mental separation of Jews and Poles with many non-Jewish Poles not calling Jewish Poles "Polish" even though many can trace their ancestry back well over a thousand years ago.  I personally ran across this in a discussion whereas the speaker said there were roughly 3 million Poles and 3 million Jews killed by the NAZI's, and when she was asked why she just didn't say 6 million Poles, her response was that Jews are not Poles.' 


This is cetainly sad but look at the memorial bellow. Easy to Google but can't seperate huge pictures from it....


It appears that in the basement of this memorial there are all the names of murdered Jews. Jews alone.  So I am a Pole and I walk past..or a Roma or a Slav..  somehow my dead are not worthy of  rememberance right?


From what I've read, above the gate in Auschwitz is inscription of how many Jews were killed there, no mention of others..


 People notice these things and much has already been mentioned around here. Injustice or unfairnes upsets me on the other side of the world and god only know how they feel living there and being exposed to it all the time. Back to Oprah's question?- except I think the word 'hate' is too strong to be used here.

Information
Names: Memorial to the Murdered Jews of Europe; Denkmal für die ermordeten Juden Europas; Holocaust Mahnmal; Berlin Holocaust Memorial
Location: Berlin, Germany
Faith: Judaism
Category: Monuments
Architecture: Modern
Date: 2005
Status:

monument


 





Dos,


The Nazis used to say if you tell a lie long enough and often enough, the people will believe it.


Are you taking a page from their playbook?


The Holocaust is understood to be mainly the the Nazi genocide of European Jews. The Holocaust Museum would naturally commenorate the murdered Jews.

For those who have faith, no explanation is neccessary.
For those who have no faith, no explanation is possible.

St. Thomas Aquinas

If one turns his ear from hearing the Law, even his prayer is an abomination. Proverbs 28:9
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3 years ago  ::  Jun 17, 2012 - 6:08PM #42
BDboy
Posts: 6,284

Jun 14, 2012 -- 9:47AM, vra wrote:


Second, there is a vested interest in Europe to keep the M.E. oil flowing since that is where most of theirs comes from, and generally they don't want to upset their source.  We have seen this played out before in other areas, btw.




 


>>>>> That is not unique for Europeans. Everyone in the world want to keep their "Source" alive. China, India, USA, Brazil are no different than the Europeans in this regard.


 


Jun 14, 2012 -- 9:47AM, vra wrote:


Third, in some countries, such as when I was in Poland in 1991, there's a mental separation of Jews and Poles with many non-Jewish Poles not calling Jewish Poles "Polish" even though many can trace their ancestry back well over a thousand years ago.  I personally ran across this in a discussion whereas the speaker said there were roughly 3 million Poles and 3 million Jews killed by the NAZI's, and when she was asked why she just didn't say 6 million Poles, her response was that Jews are not Poles.         





>>>>>>>>>> This is wrong and a major problem of Europeans. Jews should not be treated differently than rest of the Polish people.


Becasue whenever a Polish Jew goes to a third country, he/she is seen as a Polish person!!


 

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3 years ago  ::  Jun 18, 2012 - 3:28AM #43
NahumS
Posts: 1,789

There are nearly no Polish Jews today (perhaps a few thousand)- they were mostly murdered. Of the 10% that survived the Holocaust, most emmigrated because Poles continued to attack Jews after the Germans left.


Jews are not Poles. Those living in Poland may be Polish citizens, but they are not ethnic Poles. Jews and Poles always understood this. Under Soviet domination, this difference was obscured - but everyone understood that it existed.


When Americans, or British or even French people speak of their nationality, they mean citizenship. Not so with Poland or other nation-states with a clear ethnic identity.


The memorials the Soviets set up for Holocaust victims (including memorials in Soviet-dominated Poland) mentioned "victims of facism" or in some cases "Soviet citizens". In most cases, they erased the Jewish identity of the victims - who were murdered because they were Jews. Now the victims are identified correctly.


The Roma and Jews were murdered as part of a genocide. Poles were murdered if they resisted Nazis. Most did not....


And in Auschwitz it clearly mentions how many Jews and how many Poles were murdered. I was there a few months ago. Hundreds of thousands of visitors tour the place - and the overwhelming majority are not Jews. No one would put up with innaccurate signs.

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3 years ago  ::  Jun 18, 2012 - 8:54AM #44
Dostojevsky
Posts: 7,863


The Holocaust is understood to be mainly the the Nazi genocide of European Jews. The Holocaust Museum would naturally commenorate the murdered Jews.'


That holocaust is understood to be mainly the Nazi genocide against European Jews is MAINLY adopted by Jews themselves. The 'us' see it as mass murder of millions of innocent and not so innocent human beings.  


Quote Nahum:


'Jews are not Poles. Those living in Poland may be Polish citizens, but they are not ethnic Poles. Jews and Poles always understood this. Under Soviet domination, this difference was obscured - but everyone understood that it existed.'


Nahum, so when do Jews they become 'ethinc' in another country? 


Or do they always wish to remain 'other'?


 


 

Moderated by rangerken on Jun 18, 2012 - 11:12AM
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3 years ago  ::  Jun 18, 2012 - 9:19AM #45
LeahOne
Posts: 16,565

Dos - the huge error running through all that last post - and I suspect many more! - is that it has not been the 'choice' nor 'view' of the Jews that's been discussed.


Nahum was talking about how Poles viewed their Jewish 'fellow citizens'.  He was explaining to that a view of Jews as 'other' was the view of the *majority of Poles* ......


You have somehow decided that Jews *wish* to be 'other'.  That has not been my experience, even in the US. 


To be as accurate as possible, perhaps the small group of 'ultra-orthodox' do - but then so do the FLDS and the Amish and I know there are other Churches who preach 'we are in this world but not *of* it........

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3 years ago  ::  Jun 18, 2012 - 9:32AM #46
LeahOne
Posts: 16,565

Can't find it right now, but there was a piece in the BBC online by a writer who went back to his grandfather's village in Poland - and all signs of the Jewish community there were completely gone.  Only a sign - 'Synagogue Street' - to indicate there'd ever been a Jewish community there.  And a graveyard on the hill, which had been used as a rubbish dump..... 


In the town was a memorial to all the Poles killed in WW2.  No mention that the entire Jewish community at the center of the town had been deported to Auschwitz and murdered there......


www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-18440223  <- Poked around a bit and found the article. 

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3 years ago  ::  Jun 18, 2012 - 9:51AM #47
LeahOne
Posts: 16,565

www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-18409776 <-  An article on the 'football' violence - and more importantly, some background info as to WHY there is such friction between Russians and Poles to begin with....  Check the timeline alongside the article!


 


www.bbc.co.uk/news/10265464 <-  There is some healing beginning, now that the Soviet atheist influence has been gone for 20+ years.......

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 20, 2012 - 4:31PM #48
rocketjsquirell
Posts: 16,764

In the interests of giving equal time. A word from a Norwegian wearing blinkers.


Norway doesn’t hate Jews
Op-ed: Presenting Norway as major purveyor of anti-Semitism paints false, exaggerated picture
Kristina Furnes
. . .


Gerstenfeld and his peers paint a false and exaggerated picture in their promotion of Norway as a major purveyor of anti-Semitism. Such discourse does not only describe reality inaccurately, but is also counter-productive and damaging to serious efforts in fighting anti-Semitism.
. . .
The first extensive survey tasked with mapping anti-Semitism in Norway was recently published by the Center for Studies of Holocaust and Religious Minorities. According to the study, which measures a combination of prejudices, social distance and aversion towards Jews, 12.5% of the population displayed prevalent anti-Semitic attitudes. Furthermore, 19% believed Jews work in secret to promote Jewish interests, and 26% thought that Jews view themselves as better than other people.
. . .
Also, Norwegians are more prejudiced to other minorities. While the population preferred to be friends with Americans, Catholics and Jews, they were most negative toward interaction with Muslims, Somalis and people of Roma background.
. . .
full article:
www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-42442...

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 21, 2012 - 12:36PM #49
BDboy
Posts: 6,284

Jun 20, 2012 -- 4:31PM, rocketjsquirell wrote:


In the interests of giving equal time. A word from a Norwegian wearing blinkers.


Norway doesn’t hate Jews
Op-ed: Presenting Norway as major purveyor of anti-Semitism paints false, exaggerated picture
Kristina Furnes
. . .


Gerstenfeld and his peers paint a false and exaggerated picture in their promotion of Norway as a major purveyor of anti-Semitism. Such discourse does not only describe reality inaccurately, but is also counter-productive and damaging to serious efforts in fighting anti-Semitism.
. . .
The first extensive survey tasked with mapping anti-Semitism in Norway was recently published by the Center for Studies of Holocaust and Religious Minorities. According to the study, which measures a combination of prejudices, social distance and aversion towards Jews, 12.5% of the population displayed prevalent anti-Semitic attitudes. Furthermore, 19% believed Jews work in secret to promote Jewish interests, and 26% thought that Jews view themselves as better than other people.
. . .
Also, Norwegians are more prejudiced to other minorities. While the population preferred to be friends with Americans, Catholics and Jews, they were most negative toward interaction with Muslims, Somalis and people of Roma background.
. . .
full article:
www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-42442...




 


>>>>>>>> My understadning was Norway did not "Hate" Jews but they are not confortable supporting ways of Israel (The only country with Jewish majority). The land grab and human right abuses are disturbing.


The article only supports my earlier comments.




 

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 21, 2012 - 3:12PM #50
browbeaten
Posts: 3,246

Jun 21, 2012 -- 12:36PM, BDboy wrote:


Jun 20, 2012 -- 4:31PM, rocketjsquirell wrote:


In the interests of giving equal time. A word from a Norwegian wearing blinkers.


Norway doesn’t hate Jews
Op-ed: Presenting Norway as major purveyor of anti-Semitism paints false, exaggerated picture
Kristina Furnes
. . .


Gerstenfeld and his peers paint a false and exaggerated picture in their promotion of Norway as a major purveyor of anti-Semitism. Such discourse does not only describe reality inaccurately, but is also counter-productive and damaging to serious efforts in fighting anti-Semitism.
. . .
The first extensive survey tasked with mapping anti-Semitism in Norway was recently published by the Center for Studies of Holocaust and Religious Minorities. According to the study, which measures a combination of prejudices, social distance and aversion towards Jews, 12.5% of the population displayed prevalent anti-Semitic attitudes. Furthermore, 19% believed Jews work in secret to promote Jewish interests, and 26% thought that Jews view themselves as better than other people.
. . .
Also, Norwegians are more prejudiced to other minorities. While the population preferred to be friends with Americans, Catholics and Jews, they were most negative toward interaction with Muslims, Somalis and people of Roma background.
. . .
full article:
www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-42442...




 


>>>>>>>> My understadning was Norway did not "Hate" Jews but they are not confortable supporting ways of Israel (The only country with Jewish majority). The land grab and human right abuses are disturbing.


The article only supports my earlier comments.




 




Just ask yourself a simple question.  What does Norway or the Norwegian people have to do with Israel.  Why do they really care?  There are worse issues in Africa and throughout the world to be more concerned about.  But, instead, they focus on the Jews.  Gotta Wonder, eh?




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