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Switch to Forum Live View Israel Raids and Damages Kindergarten In Gaza
2 years ago  ::  Jun 10, 2012 - 12:46AM #51
SherriMunnerlyn
Posts: 7,519

Jun 8, 2012 -- 5:29PM, Shusha wrote:


Jun 8, 2012 -- 5:02PM, SherriMunnerlyn wrote:

Shusha, The Hamas Charter does not justify Israeli attacks on schools and children, I do not know how any human being can justify such acts in that fashion. Can you explain? Sherri



Sherri,


There have been no attacks on schools and children by Israel.  (Hamas, on the other hand, makes this a near daily practice).


And Hamas attempts to justify this through the wording of their charter.



Israel, on the other hand, is in the very difficult position of having to respond to constant attacks on its civilians under the threat of annihilation by an entity (or two, or three) who fire rockets from the roofs of schools and hospitals and actively call for women and children to gather near military targets. 


 





Shusha,


The OP addresses an attack on a Kindergarten.


Sherri


 

Moderated by Beliefnet_community on Jun 10, 2012 - 01:43PM
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 10, 2012 - 1:21AM #52
Mlyons619
Posts: 16,572

Sherri, had the kindergarten been the taget of the attack, it would  have been leveled.


Also, we've discussed how Hamas fighters using schools, etc., as places for ambush, munitions depots, or for launching rockets or mortars, would cause those sites to lose any protection they had under the laws of war.


All your self-righteousness preaching does not alter the fact that the OP is not factual, and in fact, no such delibeerate attack on this kindergarten took place.  In short, all you are demonstrating is how little you really know abou the international laws of war

"No freedom without education"
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"NOBODY expects the Spanish Inquisition"
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 10, 2012 - 3:18AM #53
Shusha
Posts: 4,623

Gaza is a small area, Israel knows where schools are, and kindergartens are, and dairy farms are (that they have bombed 5 or 6 times already), and houses in refugee camps are. And all of these are civilian objects.



Sherri,


Are there any legal circumstances that would render a kindergarten, a farm, a house a valid military objective?  And what circumstances would those be?

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 10, 2012 - 3:22AM #54
SherriMunnerlyn
Posts: 7,519

Jun 10, 2012 -- 1:21AM, Mlyons619 wrote:


Sherri, had the kindergarten been the taget of the attack, it would  have been leveled.


Also, we've discussed how Hamas fighters using schools, etc., as places for ambush, munitions depots, or for launching rockets or mortars, would cause those sites to lose any protection they had under the laws of war.


All your self-righteousness preaching does not alter the fact that the OP is not factual, and in fact, no such delibeerate attack on this kindergarten took place.  In short, all you are demonstrating is how little you really know abou the international laws of war





mlyons619,


The human rights groups found Hamas did not use civilians as human shields, they investigated that allegation with respect to Cast Lead, so your fantasies about Hamas simply have no basis in reality, they are driven by Hasbara Propaganda. I refer you to Amnesty's report, that can be found on their website.


No, there is no evidence here this kindergarten was being used as a military site, or anything of that nature.


The OP reports an incidence of an Isreali airstrike in Gaza that damaged a kindergarten, a civilian object, and nothing you say here changes any of that in any way whatsoever.


My authority is the Fourth Geneva Convention, it is still the law, despite some nations' refusals to abide by its provisions.


Sherri


 


 

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 10, 2012 - 3:52AM #55
SherriMunnerlyn
Posts: 7,519

Jun 10, 2012 -- 3:18AM, Shusha wrote:


Gaza is a small area, Israel knows where schools are, and kindergartens are, and dairy farms are (that they have bombed 5 or 6 times already), and houses in refugee camps are. And all of these are civilian objects.



Sherri,


Are there any legal circumstances that would render a kindergarten, a farm, a house a valid military objective?  And what circumstances would those be?





Shusha,


I am not dealing with hypotheticals, we are speaking of real people being unlawfully targeted, a 3 month old baby who had her ceiling collapse on top of her in an airstrike on her house, a 3 year old woken in the middle of the night, in fear, as her house was bombed, a family who saw their family dairy farm bombed with F 16s from the USA, destroyed  for the  fifth or sixth time, their livelihood for 6 families, a kindergarten damaged by bombing raids.


Civilians and civilian objects are not lawful targets, I noticed one report speak of the airstrikes as essentially a retaliation for the violent acts of a militant, and I see these deliberate attacks on civilians and civilian objects as much as anything else as collective punishment carried out against the civilian population of Gaza for acts of individual militants. Collective punishment is unlawful under the Fourth Geneva Convention.


Sherri

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 10, 2012 - 3:59AM #56
shmuelgoldstein
Posts: 2,419

Jun 8, 2012 -- 8:54AM, wrote:


Israeli raid, ‘Land of the Children’ kindergarten damaged             



Report    Website report can be found at is misna.org , ...




Although the sites quoted here are far from un-biased, and any normal thinking person would simply ignore them as so much Arab brou-ha-ha, nevertheless the Jewish people have learned that even the most extreme lies, if not confronted, eventually settle in the minds of people as the truth. Blood libels, Jewish control of the financial world and Hollywood come to mind.


So, in this light, speaking as an IDF reservist soldier, I will repeat:


Israel never intentionally targets non-combatant civilians.




 

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 10, 2012 - 12:02PM #57
LeahOne
Posts: 16,396

Sherri, are you presuming to 'inform' us that Schmuel is unaware of the policies of the IDF ?  Or are you insisting that Schmuel is lying about them?


If it's not one or the other, then what is it that you are trying to communicate to us here? 


 

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 10, 2012 - 4:20PM #58
SherriMunnerlyn
Posts: 7,519

Jun 10, 2012 -- 3:59AM, shmuelgoldstein wrote:


Jun 8, 2012 -- 8:54AM, wrote:


Israeli raid, ‘Land of the Children’ kindergarten damaged             



Report    Website report can be found at is misna.org , ...




Although the sites quoted here are far from un-biased, and any normal thinking person would simply ignore them as so much Arab brou-ha-ha, nevertheless the Jewish people have learned that even the most extreme lies, if not confronted, eventually settle in the minds of people as the truth. Blood libels, Jewish control of the financial world and Hollywood come to mind.


So, in this light, speaking as an IDF reservist soldier, I will repeat:


Israel never intentionally targets non-combatant civilians.




 




shmuelgoldstein,


The human rights groups have found otherwise, they say Israel deliberately targets civilians.


Here are just a few statements by Amnesty about Isreal's past deliberate attacks on civilians in Gaza.


"The scale and intensity of the attacks on Gaza were unprecedented. Some 300 children and hundreds of other unarmed civilians who took no part in the conflict were among the 1,400 Palestinians killed by Israeli forces.



Most were killed with high-precision weapons, relying on surveillance drones which have exceptionally good optics, allowing those observing to see their targets in detail. Others were killed with imprecise weapons, including artillery shells carrying white phosphorus – not previously used in Gaza - which should never be used in densely populated areas.



Amnesty International found that the victims of the attacks it investigated were not caught in the crossfire during battles between Palestinian militants and Israeli forces, nor were they shielding militants or other military objects. Many were killed when their homes were bombed while they slept. Others were sitting in their yard or hanging the laundry on the roof. Children were struck while playing in their bedrooms or on the roof, or near their homes. Paramedics and ambulances were repeatedly attacked while attempting to rescue the wounded or recover the dead.



"The deaths of so many children and other civilians cannot be dismissed simply as 'collateral damage', as argued by Israel," said Donatella Rovera. "Many questions remain to be answered about these attacks and about the fact that the strikes continued unabated despite the rising civilian death toll."



More than 3,000 homes were destroyed and some 20,000 damaged in Israeli attacks which reduced entire neighbourhoods of Gaza to rubble and left an already dire economic situation in ruins. Much of the destruction was wanton and could not be justified on grounds of "military necessity."


www.amnesty.org/en/news-and-updates/repo...


Sherri

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 10, 2012 - 5:35PM #59
SherriMunnerlyn
Posts: 7,519

Jun 8, 2012 -- 3:14PM, Mlyons619 wrote:


Another fair and unbiaed site that reports both sides, BD?


Yes, I've read accounts that the various Pal propaganda sites cut, paste, and share the same story over and over and over.


Strangely enough, tho, these stories NEVER make it to legitimate news media.


This story is simply another one of those.


 




Mlyons619,


That article in Post 5  is interviews with families whose homes and businesses were bombed and photos of some of the damage done in the very same airstikes, the airstrikes in Gaza occurred June 3 and June 4, that damaged the kindergarten in the OP, which becomes perfectly clear after one reads the weekly human rights group's report for the week ending June 6, 2012. There is consistency in information in that article and the weekly human rights group report, giving the article credibility. Some of the civilian families who had homes and businesses bombed by airstrikes were interviewed and they tell us exactly what happended.


reliefweb.int/node/502160


Sherri

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 10, 2012 - 8:22PM #60
LeahOne
Posts: 16,396

Nobody on the ground in Gaza could possibly *KNOW* whether the airstrikes were targeted on the actual buildings hit or not.


So all of their 'eyewitless accounts' are completely irrelevant to that issue.


In other words, Sherri:  You haven't provided the source requested by Mark and myself. 

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