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Switch to Forum Live View Israel Raids and Damages Kindergarten In Gaza
2 years ago  ::  Jun 09, 2012 - 3:41PM #41
Mlyons619
Posts: 16,571

I am personally dissatisfied with making the argument that the source is unreliable therefore the event never really happened.  We do that far too much here and it bogs down the conversation unneccessarily and solves nothing...



However this particular modus operendi has played out waaaay too many time.  Hoffific atrocities against innocent women and children by the "evil" Israeli Defense Forces are reported.  The source invariably comes from specific blog sites instead of credible news sources.  Usually, no background as to WHY the IDF would commit these "horrific acts" are reported.  A Google source reveals no indepenednt reporting of the "horrific atrocity" in question exists, although a word-for-word account is cut and pasted among the hundreds of biased propaganda blogs on the Internet. 


Of course, anybody who questions the account must be a "souless, evil, Israeli-apologist babykiller, lacking in any humanity whatsoever."


Is any of this sounding familiar on this particular thread? 


Moderated by Stardove on Jun 09, 2012 - 07:04PM
"No freedom without education"
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"NOBODY expects the Spanish Inquisition"
            -- Monty Python
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 09, 2012 - 4:28PM #42
Shusha
Posts: 4,583

Sherri,


and as I just mentioned in a recent post there were many more than two missile attacks into Gaza last week. We do not know which missile attack damaged the kindergarten,


Okay, try to follow along with me here.  The kindergarten is in Khan Younis.  There were two attacks in Khan Younis during the dates in question.  Therefore, one of these attacks was the one that damaged the kindergarten (assuming the accuracy of the OP).  The OP claims the attack happened "Saturday night".  The two attacks on Khan Younis happened at 1am Sunday morning and Friday afternoon.  It seems likely that the one the OP refers to is the one that happened Sunday morning (which many people would refer to as Saturday night).  This was the attack on the dairy farm. The IDF claims the targets hit during the time in question were either weapons manufacturing plants or storage facilities.  And since it is a fact that explosives and grenades were attempted to be used the day before -- there MUST have been a weapons facility in Khan Younis.




I am familiar with the law and these attacks were not lawful,  but regardless of which one it was, attacks on kindergartens are not lawful under the Fourth Geneva Convention, nor are attacks on dairy farms, or houses in refugee camps where children and families live.


To begin with, there is still no evidence that the kindergarten was the target of the attack.  Either it was, and the IDF missed and hit the dairy farm by accident, or the kindergarten was not the target.  Since the IDF reported direct hits, the former seems unlikely.


As to the rest of this paragraph, it is hard to tell if you are intentionally being deceitful or your familiarity with the law is somewhat lacking.  Whether a target is defined as a valid military objective does not depend on the normal use of the building in question.  Nor does it depend on the presence or absence of civilians.  Here are some definitions of a military objective:


Article 2 of the 1907 Hague Convention (IX) allows the bombardment of “[m]ilitary works, military or naval establishments, depots of arms or war matériel, workshops or plant which could be utilized for the needs of the hostile fleet or army, and the ships of war in the harbour”


Article 52(2) of the 1977 Additional Protocol I provides:
In so far as objects are concerned, military objectives are limited to those objects which by their nature, location, purpose or use make an effective contribution to military action and whose total or partial destruction, capture or neutralization, in the circumstances ruling at the time, offers a definite military advantage


Now if you were to argue that we have no way of knowing whether or not the dairy farm (or even the kindergarten) was a valid military objective, you would be correct.  We don't have enough information to prove that.  We do know that there was a valid military target iin Khan Younis, however.




Your defense of these war crimes, I reject.


You can know nothing of my defense or lack thereof of war crimes since you have yet to present one.


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2 years ago  ::  Jun 09, 2012 - 5:40PM #43
SherriMunnerlyn
Posts: 7,504

Jun 9, 2012 -- 3:19PM, Mlyons619 wrote:


It is a rather one-sided account that fails to mention WHY the IDF would attack.  It is, of course, one-sided propaganda B.S., that is documented nowhere else except in your "Mean-ole-Israelis-stepped-on-a-poor-lil-Palestinian-butterfly propaganda blogs. You keep citing this as your proof that the Israelis are "flagrantly violating the 4th Geneva Protocol" despite evidence to the contrary. ..




Why? It is called the Occupation, it is called Apartheid, it is called the ethnic cleansing of Palestine, and it is widely writtenabout and widely documented by human rights groups. And you have presented no evidence supporting that the deliberate attacks on civilian and civilian objects are lawful. And such attacks remain unlawful under the Fourth  Geneva Convention.

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 09, 2012 - 6:15PM #44
LeahOne
Posts: 16,359

Jun 9, 2012 -- 5:40PM, SherriMunnerlyn wrote:


Jun 9, 2012 -- 3:19PM, Mlyons619 wrote:


It is a rather one-sided account that fails to mention WHY the IDF would attack.  It is, of course, one-sided propaganda B.S., that is documented nowhere else except in your "Mean-ole-Israelis-stepped-on-a-poor-lil-Palestinian-butterfly propaganda blogs. You keep citing this as your proof that the Israelis are "flagrantly violating the 4th Geneva Protocol" despite evidence to the contrary. ..




Why? It is called the Occupation, it is called Apartheid, it is called the ethnic cleansing of Palestine, and it is widely writtenabout and widely documented by human rights groups. And you have presented no evidence supporting that the deliberate attacks on civilian and civilian objects are lawful. And such attacks remain unlawful under the Fourth  Geneva Convention.





Just because some people CALL it this or that, doesn't make the label accurate.


Just because some people write and make claims, doesn't make them true or valid.


Just because some group of people claims to be 'human rights activists', doesn't make them well-informed, well-intentioned, honest, accurate or anything else.


And you've had it explained to you how the accusations made have NOT been documented.


Most of all, Sherri - you have NEVER been able to 'document' the intentions which you routinely ascribe to the Israeli military.  NOT ONCE.  


The question is, WHY have you NEVER been able to produce documentation from ANY primary source for your filthy and disgusting invective against Israelis ?


And without any such 'documentation' in existance - what is your posting all about?  Absent any documentation, ALL there is from you is simply vicious slander and gossip directed at Israel.....

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 09, 2012 - 6:26PM #45
LeahOne
Posts: 16,359

I think we are jointly providing a public service to newer and occasional visitors to this board, by illustrating exactly how fact-free are the accusations in which any poster constantly indulges. 


 

Moderated by Stardove on Jun 09, 2012 - 07:02PM
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 09, 2012 - 8:38PM #46
Mlyons619
Posts: 16,571

Jun 9, 2012 -- 6:15PM, LeahOne wrote:

Jun 9, 2012 -- 5:40PM, SherriMunnerlyn wrote:


Jun 9, 2012 -- 3:19PM, Mlyons619 wrote:


It is a rather one-sided account that fails to mention WHY the IDF would attack.  It is, of course, one-sided propaganda B.S., that is documented nowhere else except in your "Mean-ole-Israelis-stepped-on-a-poor-lil-Palestinian-butterfly propaganda blogs. You keep citing this as your proof that the Israelis are "flagrantly violating the 4th Geneva Protocol" despite evidence to the contrary. ..




Why? It is called the Occupation, it is called Apartheid, it is called the ethnic cleansing of Palestine, and it is widely writtenabout and widely documented by human rights groups. And you have presented no evidence supporting that the deliberate attacks on civilian and civilian objects are lawful. And such attacks remain unlawful under the Fourth  Geneva Convention.





Just because some people CALL it this or that, doesn't make the label accurate.


Just because some people write and make claims, doesn't make them true or valid.


Just because some group of people claims to be 'human rights activists', doesn't make them well-informed, well-intentioned, honest, accurate or anything else.


And you've had it explained to you how the accusations made have NOT been documented.


Most of all, Sherri - you have NEVER been able to 'document' the intentions which you routinely ascribe to the Israeli military.  NOT ONCE.  


The question is, WHY have you NEVER been able to produce documentation from ANY primary source for your filthy and disgusting invective against Israelis ?


And without any such 'documentation' in existance - what is your posting all about?  Absent any documentation, ALL there is from you is simply vicious slander and gossip directed at Israel.....


And these same facts and links have been posted ocver and over and over, yet we continue to see the same imflammatory and factless threads with the same insulting and self-righteous responses...

"No freedom without education"
            --Thomas Jefferson

"NOBODY expects the Spanish Inquisition"
            -- Monty Python
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 09, 2012 - 8:57PM #47
SherriMunnerlyn
Posts: 7,504

As the OP pointed out, the Israeli authorities knew the location of the Palestinian Kindergarten.  It was publicly known this kindergarten was being funded by outside sources, and it was making use of solar energy, and its whereabouts were known. The targeted bombing was obviously deliberate.


Sherri



 



 

Moderated by Beliefnet_community on Jun 10, 2012 - 01:45PM
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 09, 2012 - 10:31PM #48
Shusha
Posts: 4,583

Sherri,


Re-posting information from 43 posts ago does not make your argument any stronger or more valid.  You have absolutely no evidence that Israel targeted the kindergarten.  And no evidence that the target was not a valid military objective. In fact, you have not introduced a single new idea to this entire thread, but just cling obstinately to the same tired pre-concieved ideas you have always had, either for the purpose of intentional deceit or in sheer ignorance. 


Let me ask you a question.  Do you think there are any valid military objectives in Gaza?  And why or why not?

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 09, 2012 - 10:43PM #49
Mlyons619
Posts: 16,571

…Deliberate attacks on civilians and civilian objects are unlawful and war crimes…



…Deliberate attacks on civilians and civilian objects are unlawful and war crimes…



True enough sherri, but you have consistently failed to prove your case that THIS particular incident constituted a deliberate attack against that kindergarten classroom.


Based on the information provided by Shusha and others here, it appears that an IDAF air attack was made against two MILITARY targets that just so happened to have been ILLEGALLY sited near the school by Hamas.


Shusha and others have additionally cited the SPECIFIC article in question that made that attack legal under international law.  In the past,  Shusha, myself, and others have REPEATEDLY referenced and linked the particular articles of international law in question that prohibit a defender from using civilian residences, hospitals, schools, etc,  to house military objectives as a shield against attack.  Doing so removes any protection that those civilian installations had under international law and renders them subject to aerial attack or bombardment. 


Just a reminder, tho:







That you consistently ignore that information provide and continue to stubbornly maintain that “dem mean ole Israelis” are committing “war crimes” does not make it so.

"No freedom without education"
            --Thomas Jefferson

"NOBODY expects the Spanish Inquisition"
            -- Monty Python
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 10, 2012 - 12:37AM #50
SherriMunnerlyn
Posts: 7,504

Jun 9, 2012 -- 10:31PM, Shusha wrote:


Sherri,


Re-posting information from 43 posts ago does not make your argument any stronger or more valid.  You have absolutely no evidence that Israel targeted the kindergarten.  And no evidence that the target was not a valid military objective. In fact, you have not introduced a single new idea to this entire thread, but just cling obstinately to the same tired pre-concieved ideas you have always had, either for the purpose of intentional deceit or in sheer ignorance. 


Let me ask you a question.  Do you think there are any valid military objectives in Gaza?  And why or why not?




Shusha,


I am not reposting anything, I am pointing out that different sources, all by humanitarian groups and human rights groups, are consistent with one another, all showing Israel deliberately targeted civilians and civilian objects, and this violates the Fourth Geneva Convention.


Gaza is a small area, Israel knows where schools are, and kindergartens are, and dairy farms are (that they have bombed 5 or 6 times already), and houses in refugee camps are. And all of these are civilian objects.


Israel's war crimes against civilians and civilain objects in Gaza need to stop.


And as for your question, all of us can read in the human rights group report about 3 militants killed in these operations, noone is claiming they were civilian targets. 


Sherri 

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