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Switch to Forum Live View Israel Raids and Damages Kindergarten In Gaza
2 years ago  ::  Jun 10, 2012 - 8:31PM #61
LeahOne
Posts: 15,725

So:  numerous blustering and slanderous posts later, Sherri still has not offered any shred fo evidence that the kindergarten was an intended target *because it is a school* OR *a solar-powered building* 


We have seen no maps showing the proximity of damaged buildings to identified military targets.


And the 4th Geneva Convention allows combatant nations to target a school or a hospital *which is being used to hold military assets* - whether troops or materiel.  


 

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 10, 2012 - 10:46PM #62
Shusha
Posts: 3,802

Sherri,


Israel knew where the kindergarten was and they deliberately targeted and damaged it.


Again, there is NO evidence the kindergarten was the target.  None.  Zero.  Nada.  To continue to claim that it was is intentionally deceitful. 



When you bomb a kindergarten, that is a deliberate attack on a civilian object that violates the Fourth Geneva Convention.


Again, when you make comments like this you demonstrate your poor understanding of the Fourth Geneva Convention, its protocols and customary IHL. 


Definition of a civilian object:


Additional Protocol I

Article 52(1) of the 1977 Additional Protocol I defines civilian objects as “all objects which are not military objectives”.


Protocol II to the Convention on Certain Conventional Weapons

Article 2(5) of the 1980 Protocol II to the Convention on Certain Conventional Weapons and Article 2(7) of the 1996 Amended Protocol II to the 1980 Convention on Certain Conventional Weapons define civilian objects as “all objects which are not military objectives”.


Protocol III to the Convention on Certain Conventional Weapons

Article 1(4) of the 1980 Protocol III to the Convention on Certain Conventional Weapons defines civilian objects as “all objects which are not military objectives”.


Definition of a military objective:


Article 2 of the 1907 Hague Convention (IX) allows the bombardment of “[m]ilitary works, military or naval establishments, depots of arms or war matériel, workshops or plant which could be utilized for the needs of the hostile fleet or army, and the ships of war in the harbour”


Article 52(2) of the 1977 Additional Protocol I provides:
In so far as objects are concerned, military objectives are limited to those objects which by their nature, location, purpose or use make an effective contribution to military action and whose total or partial destruction, capture or neutralization, in the circumstances ruling at the time, offers a definite military advantage


And in case this isn't entirely clear to you, here's a nice summary:


Distinction between Civilian Objects and Military Objectives

Rule 7. The parties to the conflict must at all times distinguish between civilian objects and military objectives. Attacks may only be directed against military objectives. Attacks must not be directed against civilian objects. [IAC/NIAC]

Rule 8. In so far as objects are concerned, military objectives are limited to those objects which by their nature, location, purpose or use make an effective contribution to military action and whose partial or total destruction, capture or neutralisation, in the circumstances ruling at the time, offers a definite military advantage. [IAC/NIAC]

Rule 9. Civilian objects are all objects that are not military objectives. [IAC/NIAC]

Rule 10. Civilian objects are protected against attack, unless and for such time as they are military objectives. [IAC/NIAC]




Please take special note of Rule 10.  A civilian object loses its protection if it becomes a military objective.  This means that ANY civilian object can become a military objective, yes even a kindergarten -- if the defending party uses it in such a way as to convert it into a military objective. 


Further, take a look at this summary which lays out the obligations and responsibilities of protecting civilians and civilian objects:


Precautions against the Effects of Attacks

Rule 22. The parties to the conflict must take all feasible precautions to protect the civilian population and civilian objects under their control against the effects of attacks. [IAC/NIAC]

Rule 23. Each party to the conflict must, to the extent feasible, avoid locating military objectives within or near densely populated areas. [IAC/arguably NIAC]

Rule 24. Each party to the conflict must, to the extent feasible, remove civilian persons and objects under its control from the vicinity of military objectives. [IAC/ar




Note that it is the responsibility EACH party.  And it is the responsibility of the defending party to AVOID locating military objectives within or near civilian objects. 




With these thoughts in mind, let's go back and examine some of the questions you have been asked that you have neglected or refused to answer:


Is it possible for a kindergarten to be a military objective?


Would bombing of a kindergarten which has become a military objective be legally allowable under the Fourth Geneva Convention, its Additional Protocols and customary IHL?


Who bears the responsibility for ensuring that civilian objects do not become military objectives?If


If we were to answer the above questions without drama and deceit, in this particular case, we would have to admit that the kindergarten could be a military objective, it would be legally allowable and it is the responsibility of those in Gaza to ensure the safety of its civilians and civilian objects by not locating military objectives in their vicinity.


That said, there is still no evidence that the kindergarten in this case was the target of the missile attack.  Neither is there any evidence that Israel intentionally targets civilians or civilian objects.  To repeat:  Israel NEVER intentionally targets civilians. 


There is PLENTY of evidence (enormous amounts of evidence) that Palestinians and Gazans neglect their obligations under IHL to ensure military objectives are not in the vicinity of civilians or civilian objects. 




All of this shpows how low Israel has fallen, that they spend their time deliberately attacking and bombing kindergartens for 3 to 6 year olds. It is all aimed at getting rid of that next Palestinian generation



Sherri, this is just silly.  The kindergarten was not the target and a 2am attack is going to do a pretty piss-poor job of "getting rid of the next Palestinian generation".  This is honestly too laughable to even address properly.  



So, Sherri, again I ask you:  Are there any military objectives in Gaza?

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 10, 2012 - 11:01PM #63
LeahOne
Posts: 15,725

Shusha, I beg to differ with you on  one point.  I do not really believe it's a case of 'not understanding' the Convention.  I think it's another instance of deliberate and wilful misrepresentation.


After all, there's been the continual deceit from the title onward - wilful and malicious deception and misrepresentation.  Two forms of torturing the facts, aka 'lying'.

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 10, 2012 - 11:05PM #64
LeahOne
Posts: 15,725

Sherri:  All of this shows how low Israel has fallen, that they spend their time deliberately attacking and bombing kindergartens for 3 to 6 year olds. It is all aimed at getting rid of that next Palestinian generation


Shusha:  Sherri, this is just silly.  The kindergarten was not the target and a 2am attack is going to do a pretty piss-poor job of "getting rid of the next Palestinian generation".  This is honestly too laughable to even address properly. 


Leah:   This is a great job of exposing the intellectual poverty and moral dishonesty of the 'humanitarian' perspective on this bombing.  The  'thesis' in the first quote is indeed risible and totally devoid of logic or intelligent interpretation - it reeks of conspiranuttery and verges on obsession.

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 10, 2012 - 11:35PM #65
SherriMunnerlyn
Posts: 7,492

Shusha,


The kindergarten, for 3 to 6 year olds, funded by the Italian government, is not a military target, children in kindergartens and kindergartens are not lawful targets for military strikes.


Of course, these are deliberate attacks on civilians and civilian objects, Israel knows where the kindergarten is, this was a project built by the Italian government and details about this kindergarten and children's center had been made public,  and Israel launches a missile at it and damages that kindergarten. An attack cannot get more deliberate than that, in the same way as if a person aimed a gun at another and pulled the trigger, shooting their intended target, no difference in these two examples at all. The attack on the dairy farm was a deliberate attack, they have destroyed this very same dairy farm 5 or 6 times before, they obviously know where this civilian dairy farm is.  The attacks on the houses in the  refugee camp were deliberate attacks on civilian houses, they know exactly where that refugee camp is, having bombed it many times before. The attack on the animal farm was a deliberate attack, killing many farm animals, this is a regular Israeli practice, too.


Attacks on civilian structures in Gaza are regularly carried out by Israel, they are acts of collective punishment, punishing the civilian population of Gaza for their government's acts or acts of militants in Gaza. They are also continued ethnic cleansing of Palestine, that has been going on for 64+ years now.


To illustrate how regular a practice it is for Israel to target civilian structures in Gaza, one has only to read excerpts of some of the human rights reports about Cast Lead.


More than 3,000 homes were destroyed and some 20,000 damaged in Israeli attacks which reduced entire neighbourhoods of Gaza to rubble and left an already dire economic situation in ruins. Much of the destruction was wanton and could not be justified on grounds of "military necessity


www.amnesty.org/en/news-and-updates/repo...


Sherri

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 11, 2012 - 12:04AM #66
LeahOne
Posts: 15,725

Sherri, you STILL have not addressed the question of 'motivation' or 'deliberate targeting'. 


All you are doing is repeating the same accusations - you have not presented any PROOF.  I just can't believe you don't understand the difference.

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 11, 2012 - 12:18AM #67
Shusha
Posts: 3,802

Sherri,


If you were being intellectually honest to the subject of your thread, you would be fully capable of answering a few questions, and you should do so.


Can a kindergarten, under any circumstances, be a valid military objective?


Are there any valid military objectives in Gaza?

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 11, 2012 - 12:19AM #68
Mlyons619
Posts: 16,206

Jun 10, 2012 -- 11:01PM, LeahOne wrote:


Shusha, I beg to differ with you on  one point.  I do not really believe it's a case of 'not understanding' the Convention.  I think it's another instance of deliberate and wilful misrepresentation.


After all, there's been the continual deceit from the title onward - wilful and malicious deception and misrepresentation.  Two forms of torturing the facts, aka 'lying'.




I thoroughly agree.  You'll note another thread was started alleging Israel "deliberately targets civilians," put out by the same source, and, again, failing to give the full story WHY the Israelis would "attack" these facilities, followed by "righteous indignation at Israeli perfidy"


Again, does this not sound like a pattern this poster has followed all along?

"No freedom without education"
            --Thomas Jefferson

"NOBODY expects the Spanish Inquisition"
            -- Monty Python
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 11, 2012 - 12:46AM #69
Mlyons619
Posts: 16,206

Sherri, quite frankly, I do not take your word, given (1) Your clear anti-Israeli bias, (2) the fact that the IDAF would not expend expensive ordinance on a strictly non-military target, and (3) IF a military target was located by Hamas in or near the kindergarten, then, under the laws of war, the target could be legally attacked and any protection the kindergarten had would have been forfeited, thanks to Hamas.


This story BTW is STILL not in the international media.  The reason is simple, the story is a LIE so blatant that even al-jazeera won't touch it.


You've done nothing to prove otherwise, except bluster and insult.  So, please, what basis should we believe you?  Seems the charge of "ignorance" is on you...

"No freedom without education"
            --Thomas Jefferson

"NOBODY expects the Spanish Inquisition"
            -- Monty Python
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 11, 2012 - 12:47AM #70
Shusha
Posts: 3,802

Sherri,


You have had plenty of opportunities to discuss real IHL and real events and yet you keep repeating the same thing over and over again as if saying it the 10th time is suddenly going to make it true.


And you still refuse to answer the questions posed to you, which says a lot about your goals and motivation.


Let me try this a different way.  I was sparring at Taekwon-do class not too long ago and ducked and dodged a rather impressive kick from my opponent.  My movement pattern was quite unusual and very quick.  My opponent expected a different reaction from me and as a consequence was moving to block what he anticipated my next move to be.  As it turned out, I was in a very different place and I ran my face right into his fist. 


The question for you:  Did my opponent deliberately punch me in the face?  (Which is illegal by our rules of play, btw). 

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