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Switch to Forum Live View About That Individual Mandate
2 years ago  ::  Jun 08, 2012 - 11:26PM #51
teilhard
Posts: 48,371

Ummmm ...


I don't know of ANY unemployed Persons here in Minnesota who took Part in any violent "FlashMobs" ANYWHERE ...


I DO know that Unemployment IS a TERRIBLE Thing ...


And I wish The Ultra-Wealthy OverLords would go ahead and create at least SOME of The Jobs they PROMISED to provide if-only-if-only-if-only we would grant them MORE Tax Cuts (which we DID) ...


Jun 8, 2012 -- 11:02PM, aarroottoonn wrote:


Jun 8, 2012 -- 7:03AM, teilhard wrote:


***I have long thought that our Society in general would benefit from less Judgment of others and more Empathy ...


E.g., The Wealthy Fortunate OverLords could take OFF the Suit-and-Tie and come OUT from the Comfy Office and do some REAL Work, with their Hands, in Conditions that are physically demanding, dirty, noisy, dangerous ...


Jun 8, 2012 -- 12:28AM, aarroottoonn wrote:


Jun 7, 2012 -- 10:53PM, teilhard wrote:


I AGREE that "Life" is "Un-Equal," hence the perceived Social-Ethical NEED for the Strong and Fortunate to HELP the Weak and UN-Fortunate ...


It's what we call, "Civilization" -- as distinct from "The Jungle" ...


Jun 7, 2012 -- 10:32PM, Bodean wrote:


No we don't.  We don't have anyting near what I'm talking about.


... and ... I dont' buy the "Unequal" .. social justice slant.  Life ain't equal.  Deal with it.


Jun 7, 2012 -- 10:24PM, teilhard wrote:


***We've already GOT such a System for the Indigent -- it's called "The County Hospital,"  


 UNEQUAL)


Jun 7, 2012 -- 10:17PM, Bodean wrote:


Jun 7, 2012 -- 9:47AM, Jasr wrote:


If I were designing a health care system I would take for-profit insurance out of the picture altogether, and fund a state level single payer pool with a progressive payroll tax.


The Heritage Foundation scheme that Obamacare has adopted is actually a major compromise and a sop to big insurance, which the Republican party gleefully portrays as "socialistic" for the benefit of its know-nothing constituents.





I wouldn't ...


I design ***a two tier system, where private insurance pays for private care, and public dollars fund public clinics that charge according to your ability to pay.


I don't begrudge the rich their better than average healthcare.  I don't support the fleecing of the tax payer with the mixing of public funds with private providers, as we have now.  I've always had a soft spot for the "working poor", who make too much to be on Medicaid, but not enough to afford a policy.


My plan is the only plan that preserves all. ... and it would cost a fraction of what we spend today.
















Then we agree. I too wish to help the weak and unfortunate. ***I don't wish to help the lazy, or those that think, simply by virtue of being, that they are entitled to anything. I also don't support keeping people on the dole forever, which is exactly what the left wants (it is a sad testament that they have been so successful in doing so, but even sadder that they are so unconcerned with their own responsibility for the plight of so many. But then it becomes a feedback loop, we don't feel responsible for the consequences of our actions, becuase that is our goal in the end.)








When one is corrupt, and there is plenty of corruption in the welfare state, both from the state and from many of its recepients, one should render a judgement.


I, and most everyone I know, have empathy for the unfortunate. However, that does not relieve them of responsibility. As an example, being over 40 myself, I am very aware of age discrmination, and what happens when someone over 40 gets laid off. However, my empathy ends far before 99 weeks of unemployment happen, for there is no reason for anyone to not being working within that time frame. Nothing. Now we hear the stories of those that can't find work for 99 weeks getting SSDI, not because they are truly disabled, but because of politics saying that if you don't find work within 99 weeks, the "mental stress" allows to you claim disability, and be on the dole forever. This type of activity deserves no empathy.


Lastly, I would point out the flash mobs in England last summer. Many of these "unfortunate souls" feel no reason whatsoever to work, but do feel that it is the responsibility of the government to take care of them. This isn't the majority of the needy, but even if it is 15% of them, it is far too many.





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2 years ago  ::  Jun 09, 2012 - 8:33AM #52
amcolph
Posts: 16,317

Jun 8, 2012 -- 11:02PM, aarroottoonn wrote:


 However, my empathy ends far before 99 weeks of unemployment happen, for there is no reason for anyone to not being working within that time frame.




Many of those now unemployed will never work again, simply because there will be no jobs for them.


This is already known to be the case in manufacturing, which has bounced back past pre-recession levels without adding a significant number of jobs.


If you like to believe that anybody who really wants a job can get one because it makes you feel better, go ahead--but it isn't true.

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 09, 2012 - 8:59AM #53
Girlchristian
Posts: 10,737

Jun 9, 2012 -- 8:33AM, amcolph wrote:


Jun 8, 2012 -- 11:02PM, aarroottoonn wrote:


 However, my empathy ends far before 99 weeks of unemployment happen, for there is no reason for anyone to not being working within that time frame.




Many of those now unemployed will never work again, simply because there will be no jobs for them.


This is already known to be the case in manufacturing, which has bounced back past pre-recession levels without adding a significant number of jobs.


If you like to believe that anybody who really wants a job can get one because it makes you feel better, go ahead--but it isn't true.




Part of the problem is that people expect to get the same type of job and the same type of pay when job hunting and that is no longer realistic especially in manufacturing where we're moving to fewer jobs that need more skills.

"No matter how dark the moment, love and hope are always possible." George Chakiris

“For those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who don't believe, no proof is possible.” Stuart Chase
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 09, 2012 - 9:59AM #54
teilhard
Posts: 48,371

And ... MANY "new hires" are of fresh young People just out of School who are already Life-long IMMERSED in various Electronic Tech Skills, are properly satisfied with entry-level (LOW) Pay and Benefits ... And THEY don't HAVE a Mortgage to pay, Children in College, etc., etc. ...


Jun 9, 2012 -- 8:59AM, Girlchristian wrote:


Jun 9, 2012 -- 8:33AM, amcolph wrote:


Jun 8, 2012 -- 11:02PM, aarroottoonn wrote:


 However, my empathy ends far before 99 weeks of unemployment happen, for there is no reason for anyone to not being working within that time frame.




Many of those now unemployed will never work again, simply because there will be no jobs for them.


This is already known to be the case in manufacturing, which has bounced back past pre-recession levels without adding a significant number of jobs.


If you like to believe that anybody who really wants a job can get one because it makes you feel better, go ahead--but it isn't true.




Part of the problem is that people expect to get the same type of job and the same type of pay when job hunting and that is no longer realistic especially in manufacturing where we're moving to fewer jobs that need more skills.





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2 years ago  ::  Jun 09, 2012 - 11:03AM #55
amcolph
Posts: 16,317

Jun 9, 2012 -- 8:59AM, Girlchristian wrote:


Jun 9, 2012 -- 8:33AM, amcolph wrote:


Jun 8, 2012 -- 11:02PM, aarroottoonn wrote:


 However, my empathy ends far before 99 weeks of unemployment happen, for there is no reason for anyone to not being working within that time frame.




Many of those now unemployed will never work again, simply because there will be no jobs for them.


This is already known to be the case in manufacturing, which has bounced back past pre-recession levels without adding a significant number of jobs.


If you like to believe that anybody who really wants a job can get one because it makes you feel better, go ahead--but it isn't true.




Part of the problem is that people expect to get the same type of job and the same type of pay when job hunting and that is no longer realistic especially in manufacturing where we're moving to fewer jobs that need more skills.




Only at the beginning.


How many years have you spent in a blue or pink collar job?


How many such workers do you actually know?

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 09, 2012 - 11:57AM #56
amcolph
Posts: 16,317

Jun 9, 2012 -- 8:59AM, Girlchristian wrote:


Jun 9, 2012 -- 8:33AM, amcolph wrote:


Jun 8, 2012 -- 11:02PM, aarroottoonn wrote:


 However, my empathy ends far before 99 weeks of unemployment happen, for there is no reason for anyone to not being working within that time frame.




Many of those now unemployed will never work again, simply because there will be no jobs for them.


This is already known to be the case in manufacturing, which has bounced back past pre-recession levels without adding a significant number of jobs.


If you like to believe that anybody who really wants a job can get one because it makes you feel better, go ahead--but it isn't true.




Part of the problem is that people expect to get the same type of job and the same type of pay when job hunting and that is no longer realistic especially in manufacturing where we're moving to fewer jobs that need more skills.




So what are you going to do with them?   The kinds of job going these days require technical skills which generally take four years of post-secondary education or a four year apprenticeship to qualify for.


What are you going to do about the forty or fifity year old unemployed worker who doesn't have these skills?  For whom the secondary education required to begin learning them is inadequate or incomplete? Who may have a sense of committment to his previous mode of employment?


(And yes, the Conservative mantra that 'workers' only care about getting the most possible money for the least possible work is a bunch of crap.)


What are you going to do?


The Liberals may have dumb ideas about it, but the Conservatives want basically to do nothing but let Social Darwinism rule.


 




 

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 09, 2012 - 2:57PM #57
aarroottoonn
Posts: 3,128

Jun 9, 2012 -- 8:33AM, amcolph wrote:


Jun 8, 2012 -- 11:02PM, aarroottoonn wrote:


 However, my empathy ends far before 99 weeks of unemployment happen, for there is no reason for anyone to not being working within that time frame.




Many of those now unemployed will never work again, simply because there will be no jobs for them.


This is already known to be the case in manufacturing, which has bounced back past pre-recession levels without adding a significant number of jobs.


If you like to believe that anybody who really wants a job can get one because it makes you feel better, go ahead--but it isn't true.




Your assessment, both of my position, and the state of the economy, are both incorrect. I never said anyone who wants a job can have one. If I did, one would simply need to point out the 15% under/unemployment numbers. What I have said, and it is 100% true, is that if you wish to find a job, it doesn't take 99 weeks of seeking.


To simply say that many of the unemployed will simply never work again, may make you feel better, because it will give you someone to feel sorry for. As for me, I refuse to take such a dim view of their future or ours as a nation. Our nation will heal, just not under the current occupant of the whitehouse.

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 09, 2012 - 3:00PM #58
aarroottoonn
Posts: 3,128

Jun 9, 2012 -- 9:59AM, teilhard wrote:


And ... MANY "new hires" are of fresh young People just out of School who are already Life-long IMMERSED in various Electronic Tech Skills, are properly satisfied with entry-level (LOW) Pay and Benefits ... And THEY don't HAVE a Mortgage to pay, Children in College, etc., etc. ...


Jun 9, 2012 -- 8:59AM, Girlchristian wrote:


Jun 9, 2012 -- 8:33AM, amcolph wrote:


Jun 8, 2012 -- 11:02PM, aarroottoonn wrote:


 However, my empathy ends far before 99 weeks of unemployment happen, for there is no reason for anyone to not being working within that time frame.




Many of those now unemployed will never work again, simply because there will be no jobs for them.


This is already known to be the case in manufacturing, which has bounced back past pre-recession levels without adding a significant number of jobs.


If you like to believe that anybody who really wants a job can get one because it makes you feel better, go ahead--but it isn't true.




Part of the problem is that people expect to get the same type of job and the same type of pay when job hunting and that is no longer realistic especially in manufacturing where we're moving to fewer jobs that need more skills.








I would be interested in seeing these people that are satisfied with low pay and benefits, because I pay a lot of attention, and haven't seen one. Most are angry, frustrated, and seeking to better themselves, and may see the job they have now as better than not having one, but that is a far cry from the statement you have made.


I will say, that if your statement is somehow true, than the US is in far worse shape than I ever dreamed, for we have raised a generation of children that don't seek greatness, only survival.

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 09, 2012 - 3:07PM #59
amcolph
Posts: 16,317

Jun 9, 2012 -- 2:57PM, aarroottoonn wrote:


 


To simply say that many of the unemployed will simply never work again, may make you feel better, because it will give you someone to feel sorry for. As for me, I refuse to take such a dim view of their future or ours as a nation. Our nation will heal, just not under the current occupant of the whitehouse.




So, what's the plan?  Mostly what I hear from Conservatives is a song about how we should give more money to those who make their living by their investments ("Job Creators," I think you call them) by taking it out of the safety net so those lazy workers will get off their couches and go get a job.


That's not going to work, either.


What might work is a carefully selected combination of Liberal and Conservative policies, but the Conservatives ruled that out at the beginning.

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 09, 2012 - 3:45PM #60
TENAC
Posts: 23,940

Jun 9, 2012 -- 3:07PM, amcolph wrote:


Jun 9, 2012 -- 2:57PM, aarroottoonn wrote:


 


To simply say that many of the unemployed will simply never work again, may make you feel better, because it will give you someone to feel sorry for. As for me, I refuse to take such a dim view of their future or ours as a nation. Our nation will heal, just not under the current occupant of the whitehouse.




So, what's the plan?  Mostly what I hear from Conservatives is a song about how we should give more money to those who make their living by their investments ("Job Creators," I think you call them) by taking it out of the safety net so those lazy workers will get off their couches and go get a job.


That's not going to work, either.


What might work is a carefully selected combination of Liberal and Conservative policies, but the Conservatives ruled that out at the beginning.




Am, its not possible from a liberal policy standpoint to grow the economy.  If for no other reason than there can be no shrinkage of govt.  This mainly describes democrats but republicans are at fault as well.


Look at how liberals change words around all the time (no, I am not going into ssM on this thread!). 


Higher Taxes = Investments


Job Creation = Govt Spending (mostly described as infrastructure)


Choice = Abortion


Socialist = Liberal = Progressive (time frame)


Children = Leverage (for raising taxes as in it's for the children)


Job Creator = Government


Private Sector = Cash Cow



Speaking of cows, I looked this back up, hadnt seen it in a while.  Someone has improved it.



SOCIALISM
You have 2 cows.
You give one to your neighbour.


COMMUNISM
You have 2 cows.
The State takes both and gives you some milk.


FASCISM
You have 2 cows.
The State takes both and sells you some milk.


NAZISM
You have 2 cows.
The State takes both and shoots you.


BUREAUCRATISM
You have 2 cows.
The State takes both, shoots one, milks the other, and then throws the milk away...


AN AMERICAN CORPORATION
You have two cows.
You sell one, and force the other to produce the milk of four cows.
Later, you hire a consultant to analyse why the cow has dropped dead.


VENTURE CAPITALISM - AN ICELANDIC CORPORATION
You have two cows.
You sell three of them to your publicly listed company, using letters of credit opened by
your brother-in-law at the bank, then execute a debt/equity swap with an associated
general offer so that you get all four cows back, with a tax exemption for five cows.
The milk rights of the six cows are transferred via an intermediary to a Cayman Island
Company secretly owned by the majority shareholder who sells the rights to all seven
cows back to your listed company. The annual report says the company owns eight cows,
with an option on one more. You sell one cow to buy a new president of the United States,
leaving you with nine cows. No balance sheet provided with the release. The public then
buys your bull.


A FRENCH CORPORATION
You have two cows.
You go on strike, organise a riot, and block the roads, because you want three cows.


A JAPANESE CORPORATION
You have two cows.
You redesign them so they are one-tenth the size of an ordinary cow and produce twenty
times the milk. You then create a clever cow cartoon image called 'Cowkimon' and market it worldwide.


A GERMAN CORPORATION
You have two cows.
You re-engineer them so they live for 100 years, eat once a month, and milk themselves.


AN ITALIAN CORPORATION
You have two cows, but you don't know where they are.
You decide to have lunch.


A RUSSIAN CORPORATION
You have two cows.
You count them and learn you have five cows.
You count them again and learn you have 42 cows.
You count them again and learn you have 2 cows.
You stop counting cows and open another bottle of vodka.


A CHINESE CORPORATION
You have two cows.
You have 300 people milking them.
You claim that you have full employment, and high bovine productivity.
You arrest the newsman who reported the real situation.


AN INDIAN CORPORATION
You have two cows.
You worship them.


A BRITISH CORPORATION
You have two cows.
Both are mad.





Any man can count the seeds in an apple....
.......but only God can count the apples in the seeds.
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