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Switch to Forum Live View Federal court rules centerpiece of gay marriage law unconstitutional
2 years ago  ::  Jun 27, 2012 - 10:46AM #661
Bodean
Posts: 9,615

Jun 27, 2012 -- 8:50AM, Sigmund wrote:


Jun 27, 2012 -- 8:40AM, Bodean wrote:


It doesn't have anything to do with LGBTs ... it has to do with the perspectives and ideals promoted in society, and the resulting consequences of those perspectives.




Interesting. The above statement is very much at odds with this statement (also by you):


Jun 26, 2012 -- 9:36PM, Bodean wrote:


The LGBT community does not want to enter into "Marriage" as it currently "IS" ... but rather, want to redifine it as they see fit.


Thus ... it is the center argument for my call to create a "union" of some sort that extends privileges, [the so called equal rights], without calling it marriage, because what they want is NOT marriage, but a legal status to access the privliges that are associated with marriage


That is the bare bones truth of it all.




So either it is about LGBT wanting to redefine marriage as they see fit or it doesn't have anything to do with LGBTs at all. Which is it?


Do you want to take a crack at resolving this apparent dichotomy?





The only reason you think there is an inconsistency, is because you want to.


The two are separate arguments tangently related to the issue, yet related to each other.  Of course the LGBT community wants to redefine Marriage such that it includes them so they can enjoy a legal status that gives them the privileges currently reserved for Marriage as historically defined.  There perspective does not consider the wider implications of their goal.  One of those wider implications is a decrease in Marriage, and a perspective that is not conisistent with the ideals of marriage that made it so successful, primarily, inter-dendence, commitment, and monogamy. .... it's all rapped up in the ideal that "two are joined and become one".


On the other side, you will find many people willing to give LGBT the "privileges they seek", but they are not willing to allow the mindset and perspectives of the Leftist centered LGBT to become recognized as "marriage", as it is not consistent with inter-dependence, commitment and monogamy, but rather, "independence", open relationships, and polygamy.


LGBT perspectives are very leftists.  Leftist thought is bad for Marriage, as referenced time and again, showing a drastic decrease in Marriage in Nations and States that are more liberal.


BTW ... your divorce stuff has already been addressed.  Liberal States in terms of Divorces per Marriage are no better than Conservative States.  The hitch is in how you express the data ... divorce per 1000 population, or divorce per 1000 marriages.  The divorce rates are about the same when correctly expressed.  Liberals, in their lying deceiving way, like to tout their massaged numbers that make their case, by quoting divorces per 1000 people..... which will naturally be lower in State with fewer marriages.  Using Such, the divorce rate would be ZERO in a State that has ZERO marriages ....

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 27, 2012 - 10:57AM #662
Ed.W
Posts: 9,442

I saw no inconsistency either, Bo.


Siggy seems to rely heavily on the non-sequitur.  I'm still waiting for substance from this newbie.


‘Being deeply loved by someone gives you strength, while loving someone deeply gives you courage.’ --Lao Tzu
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 27, 2012 - 11:00AM #663
teilhard
Posts: 51,510

Again ...


see: "Log Cabin Republicans" -- who are NOT  "Leftists" ...


see: "Libertarians" -- who are NOT "Leftists" ...




But ... I'm still shocked (not to say, also amused) by your very strange Implication, then, that "Right"-Wing Persons should be allowed to "Marry," but (supposedly) "Left"-Wing Persons can and should be DENIED a Right to Marry (because "they" don't have Correct Ideas and "they" don't DO "Marriage" the "Right" Way ...)  ...




Jun 27, 2012 -- 10:46AM, Bodean wrote:


Jun 27, 2012 -- 8:50AM, Sigmund wrote:


Jun 27, 2012 -- 8:40AM, Bodean wrote:


It doesn't have anything to do with LGBTs ... it has to do with the perspectives and ideals promoted in society, and the resulting consequences of those perspectives.




Interesting. The above statement is very much at odds with this statement (also by you):


Jun 26, 2012 -- 9:36PM, Bodean wrote:


The LGBT community does not want to enter into "Marriage" as it currently "IS" ... but rather, want to redifine it as they see fit.


Thus ... it is the center argument for my call to create a "union" of some sort that extends privileges, [the so called equal rights], without calling it marriage, because what they want is NOT marriage, but a legal status to access the privliges that are associated with marriage


That is the bare bones truth of it all.




So either it is about LGBT wanting to redefine marriage as they see fit or it doesn't have anything to do with LGBTs at all. Which is it?


Do you want to take a crack at resolving this apparent dichotomy?





The only reason you think there is an inconsistency, is because you want to.


The two are separate arguments tangently related to the issue, yet related to each other.  Of course the LGBT community wants to redefine Marriage such that it includes them so they can enjoy a legal status that gives them the privileges currently reserved for Marriage as historically defined.  There perspective does not consider the wider implications of their goal.  One of those wider implications is a decrease in Marriage, and a perspective that is not conisistent with the ideals of marriage that made it so successful, primarily, inter-dendence, commitment, and monogamy. .... it's all rapped up in the ideal that "two are joined and become one".


On the other side, you will find many people willing to give LGBT the "privileges they seek", but they are not willing to allow the mindset and perspectives of the Leftist centered LGBT to become recognized as "marriage", as it is not consistent with inter-dependence, commitment and monogamy, but rather, "independence", open relationships, and polygamy.


LGBT perspectives are very leftists.  Leftist thought is bad for Marriage, as referenced time and again, showing a drastic decrease in Marriage in Nations and States that are more liberal.


BTW ... your divorce stuff has already been addressed.  Liberal States in terms of Divorces per Marriage are no better than Conservative States.  The hitch is in how you express the data ... divorce per 1000 population, or divorce per 1000 marriages.  The divorce rates are about the same when correctly expressed.  Liberals, in their lying deceiving way, like to tout their massaged numbers that make their case, by quoting divorces per 1000 people..... which will naturally be lower in State with fewer marriages.  Using Such, the divorce rate would be ZERO in a State that has ZERO marriages ....





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2 years ago  ::  Jun 27, 2012 - 12:19PM #664
amcolph
Posts: 17,759

Jun 27, 2012 -- 10:46AM, Bodean wrote:


The two are separate arguments tangently related to the issue, yet related to each other.  Of course the LGBT community wants to redefine Marriage such that it includes them so they can enjoy a legal status that gives them the privileges currently reserved for Marriage as historically defined.  There perspective does not consider the wider implications of their goal.  One of those wider implications is a decrease in Marriage, and a perspective that is not conisistent with the ideals of marriage that made it so successful, primarily, inter-dendence, commitment, and monogamy. .... it's all rapped up in the ideal that "two are joined and become one".


On the other side, you will find many people willing to give LGBT the "privileges they seek", but they are not willing to allow the mindset and perspectives of the Leftist centered LGBT to become recognized as "marriage", as it is not consistent with inter-dependence, commitment and monogamy, but rather, "independence", open relationships, and polygamy.


 




Yet there are homosexuals who want to marry rather than participate in a civil union precisely because they want "inter-dendence (sic), commitment, and monogamy" to be "two are joined and become one".




 

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 27, 2012 - 12:43PM #665
Sigmund
Posts: 1,305

Jun 27, 2012 -- 10:46AM, Bodean wrote:


Jun 27, 2012 -- 8:50AM, Sigmund wrote:


So either it is about LGBT wanting to redefine marriage as they see fit or it doesn't have anything to do with LGBTs at all. Which is it?


Do you want to take a crack at resolving this apparent dichotomy?





The only reason you think there is an inconsistency, is because you want to.


The two are separate arguments tangently related to the issue, yet related to each other.  Of course the LGBT community wants to redefine Marriage such that it includes them so they can enjoy a legal status that gives them the privileges currently reserved for Marriage as historically defined.  There perspective does not consider the wider implications of their goal.  One of those wider implications is a decrease in Marriage, and a perspective that is not conisistent with the ideals of marriage that made it so successful, primarily, inter-dendence, commitment, and monogamy. .... it's all rapped up in the ideal that "two are joined and become one".




The problem is that you have provided no evidence for this claim. You have simply stated that it is so. I understand that you feel this way, but your feeling that SSM will cause this means nothing without objective evidence to back it up and you don't have that.



On the other side, you will find many people willing to give LGBT the "privileges they seek", but they are not willing to allow the mindset and perspectives of the Leftist centered LGBT to become recognized as "marriage", as it is not consistent with inter-dependence, commitment and monogamy, but rather, "independence", open relationships, and polygamy.




Again, same as above. you have no evidence to show to support this view and it is in fact, contradicted by several of the articles I linked to above. When you come through with some suppporting evidence I will be glad to review it.



LGBT perspectives are very leftists. 




Dick Cheney, Liberatrians, and Log Cabin Republicans among others are "Leftist"?



Leftist thought is bad for Marriage, as referenced time and again, showing a drastic decrease in Marriage in Nations and States that are more liberal.




This is in fact, completely wrong at least as far as the US goes.


According to the CDC, below are the marriage rates and precent change for the five states with the highest percent change from 2008 to 2009 and the same for the states with lowest percent change. I have also included each states red/blue status from the 2008 election.


State                      2009 Marriages     2008 Marriages     %Change     2008 Vote


District of Columbia     1892                      2367                      -25%        Obama


South Carolina            29164                   33278                     -14%         McCain


Oregon                        23530                   26139                    -11%         Obama


Oklahoma                    23539                   25959                    -11%         McCain


Alabama                      37284                   40638                     -9%           McCain


 


New Mexico                 10208                   8033                       +21%          Obama


Iowa                            21172                   19566                      +8%           Obama


Delaware                     5138                     4826                         +6%          Obama


Colorado                      37439                   35964                      +4%           Obama


Arkansas                      31622                   30476                      +4%           McCain


 


Just to recap:


Of the five states with the biggest DECREASE in marriages between 2008 and 2009, 3 were Red (Conservative) states and 2 were Blue (Leftist/Liberal) states.


Of the five states with the biggest INCREASE in marriages betwen 2008 and 2009, 1 was Red (Conservative) states and 4 were Blue (Leftist/Liberal) states.


Overall of the 12 states that showed a positive increase in number of marriages from 2008 to 2009, 7 were blue, 5 were red and 1 split the vote (Nebraska).


Care to tackle divorce rates? (I'll give you a hint, you won't like it)



BTW ... your divorce stuff has already been addressed.  Liberal States in terms of Divorces per Marriage are no better than Conservative States.  The hitch is in how you express the data ... divorce per 1000 population, or divorce per 1000 marriages.  The divorce rates are about the same when correctly expressed.  Liberals, in their lying deceiving way, like to tout their massaged numbers that make their case, by quoting divorces per 1000 people..... which will naturally be lower in State with fewer marriages.  Using Such, the divorce rate would be ZERO in a State that has ZERO marriages ....




Great. How does this help your case?

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 27, 2012 - 12:54PM #666
Sigmund
Posts: 1,305

Jun 27, 2012 -- 10:57AM, Ed.W wrote:


I saw no inconsistency either, Bo.


Siggy seems to rely heavily on the non-sequitur.  I'm still waiting for substance from this newbie.




I'm willing to be shown any non sequitor that I have relied on in this conversation if you point it out.


Care to address the substance of my post to bodean above as opposed to simply making pointless ad hominem attacks?

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 27, 2012 - 1:02PM #667
teilhard
Posts: 51,510

Yes ...


The Decline (or perhps long Delay) in Couples getting "Married" is apparently a Real Social Trend, which appears to be GENERAL, not limited to mostly any certain particular Demographic Group ...


Jun 27, 2012 -- 12:43PM, Sigmund wrote:


Jun 27, 2012 -- 10:46AM, Bodean wrote:


Jun 27, 2012 -- 8:50AM, Sigmund wrote:


So either it is about LGBT wanting to redefine marriage as they see fit or it doesn't have anything to do with LGBTs at all. Which is it?


Do you want to take a crack at resolving this apparent dichotomy?





The only reason you think there is an inconsistency, is because you want to.


The two are separate arguments tangently related to the issue, yet related to each other.  Of course the LGBT community wants to redefine Marriage such that it includes them so they can enjoy a legal status that gives them the privileges currently reserved for Marriage as historically defined.  There perspective does not consider the wider implications of their goal.  One of those wider implications is a decrease in Marriage, and a perspective that is not conisistent with the ideals of marriage that made it so successful, primarily, inter-dendence, commitment, and monogamy. .... it's all rapped up in the ideal that "two are joined and become one".




The problem is that you have provided no evidence for this claim. You have simply stated that it is so. I understand that you feel this way, but your feeling that SSM will cause this means nothing without objective evidence to back it up and you don't have that.



On the other side, you will find many people willing to give LGBT the "privileges they seek", but they are not willing to allow the mindset and perspectives of the Leftist centered LGBT to become recognized as "marriage", as it is not consistent with inter-dependence, commitment and monogamy, but rather, "independence", open relationships, and polygamy.




Again, same as above. you have no evidence to show to support this view and it is in fact, contradicted by several of the articles I linked to above. When you come through with some suppporting evidence I will be glad to review it.



LGBT perspectives are very leftists. 




Dick Cheney, Liberatrians, and Log Cabin Republicans among others are "Leftist"?



Leftist thought is bad for Marriage, as referenced time and again, showing a drastic decrease in Marriage in Nations and States that are more liberal.




This is in fact, completely wrong at least as far as the US goes.


According to the CDC, below are the marriage rates and precent change for the five states with the highest percent change from 2008 to 2009 and the same for the states with lowest percent change. I have also included each states red/blue status from the 2008 election.


State                      2009 Marriages     2008 Marriages     %Change     2008 Vote


District of Columbia     1892                      2367                      -25%        Obama


South Carolina            29164                   33278                     -14%         McCain


Oregon                        23530                   26139                    -11%         Obama


Oklahoma                    23539                   25959                    -11%         McCain


Alabama                      37284                   40638                     -9%           McCain


 


New Mexico                 10208                   8033                       +21%          Obama


Iowa                            21172                   19566                      +8%           Obama


Delaware                     5138                     4826                         +6%          Obama


Colorado                      37439                   35964                      +4%           Obama


Arkansas                      31622                   30476                      +4%           McCain


 


Just to recap:


Of the five states with the biggest DECREASE in marriages between 2008 and 2009, 3 were Red (Conservative) states and 2 were Blue (Leftist/Liberal) states.


Of the five states with the biggest INCREASE in marriages betwen 2008 and 2009, 1 was Red (Conservative) states and 4 were Blue (Leftist/Liberal) states.


Overall of the 12 states that showed a positive increase in number of marriages from 2008 to 2009, 7 were blue, 5 were red and 1 split the vote (Nebraska).


Care to tackle divorce rates? (I'll give you a hint, you won't like it)



BTW ... your divorce stuff has already been addressed.  Liberal States in terms of Divorces per Marriage are no better than Conservative States.  The hitch is in how you express the data ... divorce per 1000 population, or divorce per 1000 marriages.  The divorce rates are about the same when correctly expressed.  Liberals, in their lying deceiving way, like to tout their massaged numbers that make their case, by quoting divorces per 1000 people..... which will naturally be lower in State with fewer marriages.  Using Such, the divorce rate would be ZERO in a State that has ZERO marriages ....




Great. How does this help your case?





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2 years ago  ::  Jun 27, 2012 - 1:27PM #668
Jasr
Posts: 11,872

Jun 27, 2012 -- 12:19PM, amcolph wrote:


Jun 27, 2012 -- 10:46AM, Bodean wrote:


The two are separate arguments tangently related to the issue, yet related to each other.  Of course the LGBT community wants to redefine Marriage such that it includes them so they can enjoy a legal status that gives them the privileges currently reserved for Marriage as historically defined.  There perspective does not consider the wider implications of their goal.  One of those wider implications is a decrease in Marriage, and a perspective that is not conisistent with the ideals of marriage that made it so successful, primarily, inter-dendence, commitment, and monogamy. .... it's all rapped up in the ideal that "two are joined and become one".


On the other side, you will find many people willing to give LGBT the "privileges they seek", but they are not willing to allow the mindset and perspectives of the Leftist centered LGBT to become recognized as "marriage", as it is not consistent with inter-dependence, commitment and monogamy, but rather, "independence", open relationships, and polygamy.




Yet there are homosexuals who want to marry rather than participate in a civil union precisely because they want "inter-dendence (sic), commitment, and monogamy" to be "two are joined and become one".





This is what is so laughable about the "conservative" arguments against SSM. Marriage carries privileges and obligations.


Same sex marriage is no exception. People who desire it embrace both. Same sex couples who desire "independence", open relationships, and polygamy" do not. And those people have want they want already.


Conservatives who would quash the aspirations of gays who by definition embrace "inter-dependence, commitment and monogamy," defend their positions by claiming that same sex marriage actually undermines "inter-dependence, commitment and monogamy."


What a ridiculous position.

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 27, 2012 - 1:49PM #669
Bodean
Posts: 9,615

I disagree.  The Decline correlated with the general population being indoctrinated with Leftist thinking.


Jun 27, 2012 -- 1:02PM, teilhard wrote:


Yes ...


The Decline (or perhps long Delay) in Couples getting "Married" is apparently a Real Social Trend, which appears to be GENERAL, not limited to mostly any certain particular Demographic Group ...


Jun 27, 2012 -- 12:43PM, Sigmund wrote:


Jun 27, 2012 -- 10:46AM, Bodean wrote:


Jun 27, 2012 -- 8:50AM, Sigmund wrote:


So either it is about LGBT wanting to redefine marriage as they see fit or it doesn't have anything to do with LGBTs at all. Which is it?


Do you want to take a crack at resolving this apparent dichotomy?





The only reason you think there is an inconsistency, is because you want to.


The two are separate arguments tangently related to the issue, yet related to each other.  Of course the LGBT community wants to redefine Marriage such that it includes them so they can enjoy a legal status that gives them the privileges currently reserved for Marriage as historically defined.  There perspective does not consider the wider implications of their goal.  One of those wider implications is a decrease in Marriage, and a perspective that is not conisistent with the ideals of marriage that made it so successful, primarily, inter-dendence, commitment, and monogamy. .... it's all rapped up in the ideal that "two are joined and become one".




The problem is that you have provided no evidence for this claim. You have simply stated that it is so. I understand that you feel this way, but your feeling that SSM will cause this means nothing without objective evidence to back it up and you don't have that.



On the other side, you will find many people willing to give LGBT the "privileges they seek", but they are not willing to allow the mindset and perspectives of the Leftist centered LGBT to become recognized as "marriage", as it is not consistent with inter-dependence, commitment and monogamy, but rather, "independence", open relationships, and polygamy.




Again, same as above. you have no evidence to show to support this view and it is in fact, contradicted by several of the articles I linked to above. When you come through with some suppporting evidence I will be glad to review it.



LGBT perspectives are very leftists. 




Dick Cheney, Liberatrians, and Log Cabin Republicans among others are "Leftist"?



Leftist thought is bad for Marriage, as referenced time and again, showing a drastic decrease in Marriage in Nations and States that are more liberal.




This is in fact, completely wrong at least as far as the US goes.


According to the CDC, below are the marriage rates and precent change for the five states with the highest percent change from 2008 to 2009 and the same for the states with lowest percent change. I have also included each states red/blue status from the 2008 election.


State                      2009 Marriages     2008 Marriages     %Change     2008 Vote


District of Columbia     1892                      2367                      -25%        Obama


South Carolina            29164                   33278                     -14%         McCain


Oregon                        23530                   26139                    -11%         Obama


Oklahoma                    23539                   25959                    -11%         McCain


Alabama                      37284                   40638                     -9%           McCain


 


New Mexico                 10208                   8033                       +21%          Obama


Iowa                            21172                   19566                      +8%           Obama


Delaware                     5138                     4826                         +6%          Obama


Colorado                      37439                   35964                      +4%           Obama


Arkansas                      31622                   30476                      +4%           McCain


 


Just to recap:


Of the five states with the biggest DECREASE in marriages between 2008 and 2009, 3 were Red (Conservative) states and 2 were Blue (Leftist/Liberal) states.


Of the five states with the biggest INCREASE in marriages betwen 2008 and 2009, 1 was Red (Conservative) states and 4 were Blue (Leftist/Liberal) states.


Overall of the 12 states that showed a positive increase in number of marriages from 2008 to 2009, 7 were blue, 5 were red and 1 split the vote (Nebraska).


Care to tackle divorce rates? (I'll give you a hint, you won't like it)



BTW ... your divorce stuff has already been addressed.  Liberal States in terms of Divorces per Marriage are no better than Conservative States.  The hitch is in how you express the data ... divorce per 1000 population, or divorce per 1000 marriages.  The divorce rates are about the same when correctly expressed.  Liberals, in their lying deceiving way, like to tout their massaged numbers that make their case, by quoting divorces per 1000 people..... which will naturally be lower in State with fewer marriages.  Using Such, the divorce rate would be ZERO in a State that has ZERO marriages ....




Great. How does this help your case?









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2 years ago  ::  Jun 27, 2012 - 1:57PM #670
teilhard
Posts: 51,510

Baloney ...


see: Stephanie Coontz, op. cit. ..


Jun 27, 2012 -- 1:49PM, Bodean wrote:


I disagree.  The Decline correlated with the general population being indoctrinated with Leftist thinking.


Jun 27, 2012 -- 1:02PM, teilhard wrote:


Yes ...


The Decline (or perhps long Delay) in Couples getting "Married" is apparently a Real Social Trend, which appears to be GENERAL, not limited to mostly any certain particular Demographic Group ...


Jun 27, 2012 -- 12:43PM, Sigmund wrote:


Jun 27, 2012 -- 10:46AM, Bodean wrote:


Jun 27, 2012 -- 8:50AM, Sigmund wrote:


So either it is about LGBT wanting to redefine marriage as they see fit or it doesn't have anything to do with LGBTs at all. Which is it?


Do you want to take a crack at resolving this apparent dichotomy?





The only reason you think there is an inconsistency, is because you want to.


The two are separate arguments tangently related to the issue, yet related to each other.  Of course the LGBT community wants to redefine Marriage such that it includes them so they can enjoy a legal status that gives them the privileges currently reserved for Marriage as historically defined.  There perspective does not consider the wider implications of their goal.  One of those wider implications is a decrease in Marriage, and a perspective that is not conisistent with the ideals of marriage that made it so successful, primarily, inter-dendence, commitment, and monogamy. .... it's all rapped up in the ideal that "two are joined and become one".




The problem is that you have provided no evidence for this claim. You have simply stated that it is so. I understand that you feel this way, but your feeling that SSM will cause this means nothing without objective evidence to back it up and you don't have that.



On the other side, you will find many people willing to give LGBT the "privileges they seek", but they are not willing to allow the mindset and perspectives of the Leftist centered LGBT to become recognized as "marriage", as it is not consistent with inter-dependence, commitment and monogamy, but rather, "independence", open relationships, and polygamy.




Again, same as above. you have no evidence to show to support this view and it is in fact, contradicted by several of the articles I linked to above. When you come through with some suppporting evidence I will be glad to review it.



LGBT perspectives are very leftists. 




Dick Cheney, Liberatrians, and Log Cabin Republicans among others are "Leftist"?



Leftist thought is bad for Marriage, as referenced time and again, showing a drastic decrease in Marriage in Nations and States that are more liberal.




This is in fact, completely wrong at least as far as the US goes.


According to the CDC, below are the marriage rates and precent change for the five states with the highest percent change from 2008 to 2009 and the same for the states with lowest percent change. I have also included each states red/blue status from the 2008 election.


State                      2009 Marriages     2008 Marriages     %Change     2008 Vote


District of Columbia     1892                      2367                      -25%        Obama


South Carolina            29164                   33278                     -14%         McCain


Oregon                        23530                   26139                    -11%         Obama


Oklahoma                    23539                   25959                    -11%         McCain


Alabama                      37284                   40638                     -9%           McCain


 


New Mexico                 10208                   8033                       +21%          Obama


Iowa                            21172                   19566                      +8%           Obama


Delaware                     5138                     4826                         +6%          Obama


Colorado                      37439                   35964                      +4%           Obama


Arkansas                      31622                   30476                      +4%           McCain


 


Just to recap:


Of the five states with the biggest DECREASE in marriages between 2008 and 2009, 3 were Red (Conservative) states and 2 were Blue (Leftist/Liberal) states.


Of the five states with the biggest INCREASE in marriages betwen 2008 and 2009, 1 was Red (Conservative) states and 4 were Blue (Leftist/Liberal) states.


Overall of the 12 states that showed a positive increase in number of marriages from 2008 to 2009, 7 were blue, 5 were red and 1 split the vote (Nebraska).


Care to tackle divorce rates? (I'll give you a hint, you won't like it)



BTW ... your divorce stuff has already been addressed.  Liberal States in terms of Divorces per Marriage are no better than Conservative States.  The hitch is in how you express the data ... divorce per 1000 population, or divorce per 1000 marriages.  The divorce rates are about the same when correctly expressed.  Liberals, in their lying deceiving way, like to tout their massaged numbers that make their case, by quoting divorces per 1000 people..... which will naturally be lower in State with fewer marriages.  Using Such, the divorce rate would be ZERO in a State that has ZERO marriages ....




Great. How does this help your case?













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