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2 years ago  ::  Jun 03, 2012 - 5:29PM #71
Amin21
Posts: 4,643

***I am concerned about whether the Mainstream News dumped on Americans is accurately reporting what is happening in Syria***


Yet with all the talk you and dostoevesky have...


neither of you have shown where there has been inaccuracy or bias.


***and I think I have valid reasons for these concerns.***


That you are unable to express in regards to this situation.


Suspicion is one thing... backing it up a different one.


***I am not questioning Assad is not committing atrocities, but concerned they are being exaggerated, and concerned that atrocities are being carried out by others, as well.***


Except it keeps being pointed out that "others" are committing this or that... but... we have to remember


1. who started this


2. that the only one saying that there are others doing these things are the statements of the Syrian government itself.  All outlets saying that there are OTHERS committing these acts (you know the important ones like mass shellings and mass summary executions) are only repeating official statements of the Syrian government itself.


I have yet to see a reasonable source...


We have a situation where there IS no question on this, Sherri.


We have a situation where...


Human Rights Watch


Israel,


The UN commission on Human rights


The ICRC


Amnesty


Robert Fisk


The EU


the USA


The Gulf cooperation council...


137 nations in the UN


are very clear as to what is happening in Syria and who is responsible.


The Press in 137 nations is clear about what is happening.  How is that a Western plot?


***Peace advocates do not support wars, true peace advocates never support war, because war is always a choice, and in that same way peace is always a choice, too. We always choose.***


I am not a peace activist.  I do not see Iran and Syria as peaceful nations.  Assad chose to go to war with his people...


That I agree with.  Defending ones self is not a choice however.  It is a necessity.


***I think efforts at resolving the conflict through Diplomacy should continue.***


There are no efforts that exist to solve this diplomatically.  There are efforts to buy Assad time to continue to wage war.  What you call diplomatic efforts are simply attempts to delay pressure on Assad's war against his own people.


There already is a war.


**I almost always agree with what Richard Falk says about intl matters these days, he has so much knowledge about intl law and conflicts. He points out, I think, the problem with the UN not having authority or a mechanism to effectively deal with matters like this. Obviously, we need some reform at the intl level, but sadly that does not look likely to occur.***


I agree that the one nation veto system is a problem.  I think at least 2 or 3 vetos should be needed to veto something... but NO nation with that power currently is likely to dilute it... not the US and certainly not Russia or China...


***The Houla Massacre of a week ago in several small Muslim villages near the Syrian city of Homs underscores the tragic circumstances of civilian vulnerability to the brutal violence of a criminal government.***


In other words he says


ASSAD commited Houla.


***Reliable reports confirm that most of the 108 civilians who died in Houla were executed at close range in cold blood, over 50 of whom were children under the age of 10.***


The reports that this happened were reliable according to your own source.  I will point your source out to Dostoevesky.


***This massacre also represents a crude repudiation of UN diplomacy, especially the ceasefire 280 unarmed UN observers have been monitoring since it was put into effect on April 12th.***


There was never a ceasefire.  Violence in the country in Feb and Mar were elevated more than during the ceasefire... but rates of violence from Nov-Jan were about the same as they are now under this ceasefire.


People are still prevented from protesting.


***but only by deceiving Russia and China as to the scope of the response contemplated by the authorization of force in March of 2011), but the outcome still being shrouded in uncertainty and controversy. For reasons explained above, plus the lingering resentment due to the Libyan deception on the part of Russia and China, there has not yet emerged a similar geopolitical consensus favoring military intervention in Syria, and none seems likely. Just as doing nothing is unacceptable, mounting a military intervention is unrealistic, and perhaps undesirable, and for now politically impossible.***


I wholly disagree that Russia and China were in Any way deceived in Libya and I can back up my position.


there is no mistaking the phrase "by any and all means" put into a legal document.  Russia knew what they were doing.   There is no way they didn't.  There is no way they didn't see the war ships and equipment outside Libya waiting for the approval of the resolution.  Statements like this are utterly delusional.


I don't disagree with much of the content other than that...


and the fact that if it fails and Assad doesn't fall naturally... we will end up with a crisis that will need to be contained or Assad's crackdown will spread across the region.

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 03, 2012 - 6:15PM #72
Amin21
Posts: 4,643

Two interesting facts:


Why has CAIR taked a position against Assad... if everything going on in Syria is simply a plot?  CAIR has a long tradition of opposition to America's policies in the Middle East.


What prompts their change in attitude?  What makes this Muslim group, famous for support of Palestinian causes and against the US war in Iraq and Afghanistan have such a different point of view on Syria, have they succumbed to "Western propaganda"?


noting that let us add


Are HRW and Amnesty American tools also?

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 03, 2012 - 6:45PM #73
Miraj
Posts: 5,021

Media bias is a plausible concern, however, there is no plausible circumstance by which a country's leadership would stand by and allow their citizens to be massacred by a foreign element without indulging in some form of protest being covered in the Arab press, at the very least.  A willingness to believe press about the massacres in Sabra and Shatila, or atrocities in Bosnia or abuses in Gaza and the WB for example, needs to also be a willingness to understand that colonial remnants in the Third World can do evil with or without the backing of the west.

Disclaimer: The opinions of this member are not primarily informed by western ethnocentric paradigms, stereotypes rooted in anti-Muslim/Islam hysteria, "Israel can do no wrong" intransigence, or the perceived need to protect the Judeo-Christian world from invading foreign religions and legal concepts.  By expressing such views, no inherent attempt is being made to derail or hijack threads, but that may be the result.  The result is not the responsibility of this member.


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2 years ago  ::  Jun 03, 2012 - 6:49PM #74
Mlyons619
Posts: 16,572

So most (tho not all) agree that the Assad Regime is essentially committing cold-blooded murder of its population.


We're pretty much agreed that the Assad side of this civil war is committing the bulk of the atrocities.


We're pretty much agreed that the so-called cease-fire is being ignored by the Assad Regime and its supporters.


We're essentially agreed that diplomacy is having little to no effect in stopping the bloodbath.


We're essentially agreed that Assad must go.


So where is the follow-through?


Clearly the US is going to do what it does best when our intervention really matters - and that is NOTHING.


Like what we did with Poland, Hungary and Czechoslovakia.


Moral support does not strengthen a resistance.  Money, arms, and even troops strengthen a resistance, and the Syrian Resistance is not getting near enough of that support.


So where is the UN, NATO, Arab League?  Where is the US?


Hand-wringing doesn't hack it...

"No freedom without education"
            --Thomas Jefferson

"NOBODY expects the Spanish Inquisition"
            -- Monty Python
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 03, 2012 - 9:15PM #75
KindredSai
Posts: 5,744

The UN is tragically a futile organization as we've seen in Bosnia and Rwanda.


US and European interventions have proven to be quite useless like in Iraq and Afghanistan unless there is a greater understanding of the regional politics and a joint agreement with most nations of the UN on board.

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 03, 2012 - 9:26PM #76
Mlyons619
Posts: 16,572

Except that it only takes ONE nation, like Russia or China, to put the kabosh on any UN support of any intervention in Syria.


So Syria can continue to sanction the murder of its citizens by these pro-Assad militias, and the the UN can continue to report and wring its hands.


So, yes, I agree that the UN is a futile organization, one I have no respect for.


Nothing changes, is the point.  People continue to die.

"No freedom without education"
            --Thomas Jefferson

"NOBODY expects the Spanish Inquisition"
            -- Monty Python
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 03, 2012 - 9:30PM #77
Amin21
Posts: 4,643

If the UN required two vetos China might not have been so fast to Veto as they would have been the deciding vote.  They currently are trying to make sure Russian doesn't stand alone.


Their only interest in Syria is Iranian and Russian oil when it comes down to it.

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 03, 2012 - 9:38PM #78
Mlyons619
Posts: 16,572

Bottom line is that we're not going to make any changes to the UNSC's veto requirements in time to help the Syrian people.  Until somebody decides to put boots on the ground on the side of the Syrian opposition, the murders by the Assad Regime and its militias will continue.

"No freedom without education"
            --Thomas Jefferson

"NOBODY expects the Spanish Inquisition"
            -- Monty Python
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 03, 2012 - 10:16PM #79
SherriMunnerlyn
Posts: 7,519


I remember bombs killing civilians in Lebanon, like it was yesterday. There was a Christian group, Arab Baptist Theological Seminary, in Beirut, they operated a school, they took in Muslim Shiites who had fled from their homes, fleeing the Israeli bombings. And they still have relationships with the Muslims they took in, from the south of Lebanon. They tore down the sectarian walls that divided them from one another, during that war, as bombs were falling on the civilians of Lebanon.


Sherri

Moderated by rangerken on Jun 04, 2012 - 01:06AM
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 03, 2012 - 10:22PM #80
Mlyons619
Posts: 16,572

I agree we should all be praying for a miracle.


I do not agree that we should be sitting idly by, tho, waiting for that miracle to happen, when we could be doing something about stopping what's happening.


"All that is required for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing."
(Edmund Burke)
"No freedom without education"
            --Thomas Jefferson

"NOBODY expects the Spanish Inquisition"
            -- Monty Python
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