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2 years ago  ::  Jun 04, 2012 - 11:46AM #91
Amin21
Posts: 4,643

***But I am addressing Syria, did you not read my last post?***


Yes you compared a lesser situation which you have expressed extreme emotional outrage to...  a greater on in which you have not.


***Of course, Syrian lives have no lesser value than other's lives.***


Really? 


***Their lives have value, just like the 1000 that die every day in The Congo, just like the over 1000 babies who die every year in the OPT for lack of proper medical care, because of the Occupation and illegal settler attacks.***


In other words We can't talk about the situation in Syria in isolation


without attempting to downgrade its importance?


***and military intervention and arms and weapons and violence will only cause more deaths to Syrians***


I would have to say that I disagree entirely.  It will in the end prevent deaths.


***and to civilians dying every where else in the world they are dying, when military intervention is chosen as the method to fix the problem.***


Actually military intervention has regularly been successful.


Bosnia...


Kosovo...


and a variety of African countries would be worse off without it...

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 04, 2012 - 11:59AM #92
rocketjsquirell
Posts: 15,755

What Amin said :-)

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 04, 2012 - 1:09PM #93
SherriMunnerlyn
Posts: 7,492

Jun 4, 2012 -- 11:46AM, Amin21 wrote:


***But I am addressing Syria, did you not read my last post?***


Yes you compared a lesser situation which you have expressed extreme emotional outrage to...  a greater on in which you have not.


***Of course, Syrian lives have no lesser value than other's lives.***


Really? 


***Their lives have value, just like the 1000 that die every day in The Congo, just like the over 1000 babies who die every year in the OPT for lack of proper medical care, because of the Occupation and illegal settler attacks.***


In other words We can't talk about the situation in Syria in isolation


without attempting to downgrade its importance?


***and military intervention and arms and weapons and violence will only cause more deaths to Syrians***


I would have to say that I disagree entirely.  It will in the end prevent deaths.


***and to civilians dying every where else in the world they are dying, when military intervention is chosen as the method to fix the problem.***


Actually military intervention has regularly been successful.


Bosnia...


Kosovo...


and a variety of African countries would be worse off without it...




Amin,


There are other suffering in the world right now, besides just those in Syria. That is a fact.


And if what you said were true about these so called successful military operations, we would not have the substantial numbers of civilians dying in those so called successful military operations, who have died in these operations.


If a person really cared about the lives of civilians, they would never support wars.


Civilians are always the ones who suffer most in wars, the most obvious consequence of war is civilians dying.


Wars are civilian killing operations.


Sherri




 

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 04, 2012 - 1:16PM #94
Mlyons619
Posts: 16,571

So again, sherri, you advocate doing nothing?

Moderated by Merope on Jun 04, 2012 - 02:10PM
"No freedom without education"
            --Thomas Jefferson

"NOBODY expects the Spanish Inquisition"
            -- Monty Python
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 04, 2012 - 1:28PM #95
Amin21
Posts: 4,643

***There are other suffering in the world right now, besides just those in Syria. That is a fact.***


It is also a fact that you are trying to down grade attention on Syria, and upgrade lesser conflicts in the same region and are now trying to defer from the region


***And if what you said were true about these so called successful military operations, we would not have the substantial numbers of civilians dying in those so called successful military operations***


so you claim, but as is pointed out... the success and failure of preventaive measures are very difficult to guage.  I affirm that I believe they have had a positive impact... you claim the opposite... knowing people who have been involved in such operations helps though...


who have died in these operations.


***If a person really cared about the lives of civilians, they would never support wars.***


this statement is ripe with fallacy.


I do care.


and yes I DO support certain wars 100%


You can't tell me I don't care based on a mantra...


***Civilians are always the ones who suffer most in wars, the most obvious consequence of war is civilians dying.***


We are not talking about war in general but about Syria.


in Syria civilians... unarmed civilians are dying... protesters executed and entire areas blanket shelled.


***Wars are civilian killing operations.***


Wars are the use of weapons to impliment policies or defend oneself...


Lets talk war... if Hezbollah had been disarmed like the should have done after Israel pulled out of Lebanon... there never would have been a 2006 war.


Again... you express the importance regularly of Palestine... a lesser scale conflict...


and mention 2006 in Lebanon... but both are minor in comparison to Assad's actions. 


In 30 Israel has not killed as many Arabs as Assad in one...


in 50 Israel hasn't killed as many Arabs as Assad in 30.


You can't prove more have died from intervention than otherwise for one, except maybe in Iraq which wasn't an intervention anyway.  In the balkans they appear to have been quite successful for example.


Further we aren't talking about Africa...


We are talking about a strategically important state... where Assad's bungling could lead to spreading chaos throughout the region. 


This is not about what has happened in other places...


This is about Syria.


Why do you want to deflect from the topic at hand?  Why can you go call it ethnic cleansing in Israel where little or no death is occurring... but write of Syria as "just another conflict" my wife and the Syrian people didn't look at the situation in Palestine as "just another conflict" the Kuwaitis before Saddam's invasion didn't view it as just another conflict...


How come you must down grade the suffering and fear that my wife's relatives face to my face?


but how to prevent them from occurring in Syria as well.  Intervention is one option.  The best option is that Damascus and Aleppo show their colors and march in mass.


We have already recently seen a mass shop strike in Damascus recently... that resulted in vandelism against these shop owners.  As Damascus starts to taste more of the oppression visited to the outside areas this could end without intervention.


Afterall the vast majority of what has gone on in Syria reflected the peaceful protests in Egypt prior to and even in the midst of the crackdown.  The oppostions has shown much restraint in the face of the regimes lack of restraint. 

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 04, 2012 - 1:42PM #96
SherriMunnerlyn
Posts: 7,492

Jun 4, 2012 -- 1:16PM, Mlyons619 wrote:


So again, sherri, you advocate doing nothing?



I am not advocating doing nothing, I support continuing Diplomacy, that is taking place between the UN and the Syrian Regime and others.


And I support nonviolent responses to the violence, that may take various forms. People can try to leave areas where violence flares up, people can reach out and take people who have fled their homes into their own homes. People can reach out to help one another. I think Hotel Rwanda is a good example illustrating nonviolent responses to violent situations, each person can make a positive difference in the lives of others.


I have read the Christians support Assad, he does seem to have some support still among the people of Syria.


Who are we, the people outside Syria, to decide who should govern in Syria? 


Sherri

Moderated by Merope on Jun 04, 2012 - 02:11PM
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 04, 2012 - 1:59PM #97
Mlyons619
Posts: 16,571

There will be no serious diplomatic action against Assad, other than a stern finger-shaking , because Russia and China will prevent any serious diplomatic action against Syria to be taken.


Which means Assad can continue murdering his opposition without any serious repercussions.


The pathetic hangwringing will be the only action taken against Syria.

Moderated by rangerken on Jun 04, 2012 - 02:10PM
"No freedom without education"
            --Thomas Jefferson

"NOBODY expects the Spanish Inquisition"
            -- Monty Python
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 04, 2012 - 2:07PM #98
Amin21
Posts: 4,643

***I do not see Hypocrisy in supporting peace over war, none whatsoever.***


Except... that you are supporting a war... through justifying Assad's war on his people as a conflict between two sides... and writing it off


We are not talking strictly about intervention.


To see a condmenation of Assad's tactics and an admission or acceptance of what they are...


***and I am not advocating doing nothing***


What you are advocating is that the world effectively allow Assad to work his magic...


***I support continuing Diplomacy, that is taking place between the UN and the Syrian Regime and others.***


There is no diplomacy.  The regime is not engaging in ANY diplomacy and has not attempted to.


***And I support nonviolent responses to the violence, that may take various forms.***


What you are advocating is suicide.


The Syrian people tried non-violence for months and months.  Most Syrian opposed to the regime continue to practice non-violence.  They continue to be torture, arrested and summarily executed.  They face government snipers if the go to buy bread.


Most continue to do so... regardless


I do not believe in non-violence.


It works only on governments with a moral underpinning like the US and UK.


Self-defense comes before non-violence.


***People can try to leave areas where violence flares up***


People are trying.   They are shot at, have new landmines to cross... there are camps in Turkey full of people like that.


What you really mean... is "if you don't like it you can leave and Syria can be ethnically clean"


***people can reach out and take people who have fled their homes into their own homes.***


This is exactly what our relatives did during the Kurdish crack down of 2005.


***People can reach out to help one another.***


EVERYTHING you are talking about is EXACTLY what the Syrian people are doing.


Protests... business strikes... sit ins...


all are met with death torture vandalism and violence.


***I think Hotel Rwanda is a good example illustrating nonviolent responses to violent situations, each person can make a positive difference in the lives of others.***


Yes non-violence worked so well in Rwanda...


***And there is Prayer, and I am not trying to Proselytize anyone, I am addressing what I think are moral choices as to actions people there can take in difficult circumstances many there may be finding themselves in.***


Violence is also a moral choice in the face of Tyranny.


Christianity and Islam both teach conditions under which just war can occur.  Assad's war is not just.  His rule is not just.  Removing his rule and attacking his forces is just and is a moral choice...


no, an obligation...


***I have read the Christians support Assad, he does seem to have some support still among the people of Syria.***


His support is very little and Syrian Christians make up less than 10% of the population who mostly support him for a variety of reasons I would happily discuss.


Sunni's make up 70% of the country maybe and Sunni are OVERWHELMINGLY against him


Assad does NOT have sizable support.


***Who are we, the people outside Syria, to decide who should govern in Syria?***


Speak for yourself... I know Syrians who are IN Syria right now... Do you?  Or do you just "hear" who is supporting who from expatriots and non-Syrians?


and who are we to say they don't have a right to decide?  Who are we to poo poo their non-violent forms of resistance... like refusing to help the regime just to get the good free medicines they deperately need... who are we to say that a Soldier summarily executed for no crime other than refusing to kill his own citizens


Yes... one form of non-violent resistance is refusing the free medical assitance that comes for being a government informant and risking your health... one form is accepting that the only medicine you can get without paying the government so they can buy more bullets is unusable and can put you in a coma.


Who are we to say that the Syrian resistance is mostly violent... when groups of people in Damascus can't gather and protest without arms for more than 5 minutes without being chased... or shot at.  To protest in Damascus you have to stay physically fit right now.


I know a LOT about non-violent resistance in Syria.

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 04, 2012 - 11:44PM #99
habesor
Posts: 5,650

Amin,


I hate to say this but you sound a lot like me arguing with some (though not all) of the anti-Israel folks on this forum. One factor that you seem to forget in all of this is that Assad supports the most extreme elements of the Palestinians. In some quarters he gets a lot of points for that and minor indiscretions like oppression and slaughter of the Syrian people are ignored or whitewashed. 


The really strange thing is that these folks somehow think that their attitudes benefit the Arab people.


Habesor

Habesor
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 05, 2012 - 12:31AM #100
LeahOne
Posts: 16,280

"How come you must down grade the suffering and fear that my wife's relatives face to my face?"


Because you and your wife are not 'Palestinians'?  Because her family's suffering can't directly be blamed on 'Israel' or 'Zionists'?  Because whoever is the 'pundit of the month' hasn't declared yet that there's a crisis in Syria?


Maybe it's as simple as that you don't prance about these boards preening yourself for being a 'person of conscience' and a 'pacifist' - in between pissing on the US in general and anyone who's ever been NEAR the military in particular?


 


I suppose that Sherri is still unaware that 'diplomacy' has had a very poor success rate with homocidal narcissistic dictators like Hitler, Stalin, Sadddam, Assad, Pol Pot and many others? 


Of course if Assad is left to continue as he wishes, there will be a sort of 'peace' - whatever Syrians remain alive will be too terrified to do anything to even complain about him.  Rather like the destitute folks who are slaves in Namibia - there's nothing holding them in place, except there's nowhere to go, and no way to go except to walk .......

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