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2 years ago  ::  May 30, 2012 - 6:52PM #21
rocketjsquirell
Posts: 15,750

I can not hold out much hope that it will do much good, but please consider the following:


Protect Syria’s Children Now!


The pictures from Al Houla, Syria, last Friday are almost too brutal to look at. I have a 5 year old daughter and I know it's only luck of birth that separates her from this horror. But my shock led me to write this today as I know there is something we can all do together to stop this.

Dozens of children lie covered with blood, their faces show the fear they felt before death, and their innocent lifeless bodies reveal an unspeakable massacre. These children were slaughtered by men under strict orders to sow terror. Yet all the diplomats have come up with so far is a few UN monitors 'observing' the violence. Now, governments across the world are expelling Syrian ambassadors, but unless we demand strong action on the ground, they will settle for these diplomatic half-measures.

The UN is discussing what to do right now. If there were a large international presence across Syria with a mandate to protect civilians, we could prevent the massacres while leaders engage in political efforts to resolve the conflict. I cannot see more images like these without shouting from the rooftops. But to stop the violence, it is going to take all of us, with one voice, demanding protection for these kids and their families


link


www.avaaz.org/en/syria_will_the_world_lo...


I hope it is ok to post this. If not please delete.


I wish That I (or anyone else) knew something we could do to stop the killing and which would actually accomplish something good for the Syrian people. 


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2 years ago  ::  May 30, 2012 - 6:58PM #22
rocketjsquirell
Posts: 15,750

This is sort of a summary of recent events. It does not make for happy reading.

Assad's Response to the Annan Plan: Violence as Usual

Jeffrey White

In light of the Houla tragedy and other indicators of growing violence, the UN observer mission in Syria will likely be withdrawn, spurring the regime to escalate its offensive operations even further.

The massacre of over 100 civilians in Houla last Friday has focused attention on the Syrian regime's conduct during the ceasefire brokered by UN envoy Kofi Annan. President Bashar al-Assad agreed to Annan's overall plan, but since its "implementation" on April 12, his forces have systematically ignored its provisions, which include a ceasefire, suspension of troop movements toward population centers, withdrawal of forces from these areas, and a ban on using heavy weapons against them. Instead, the regime is increasing its violent campaign against the opposition -- actions such as armored raids on centers of resistance, violent suppression of demonstrations, and bombardment of civilian areas with artillery and attack helicopters were on the rise before last week's massacre and have shown no sign of slackening since.

Thus, while the Houla attack was unusual in the number killed, it was standard operating procedure for Assad's forces. The regime has essentially reverted to its preceasefire behavior, and the several hundred UN monitors on the ground are little more than a speed bump for violence against the people.
. . .

full article:
www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analy...

Some will undoubtedly call this anti-Assad propaganda.

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2 years ago  ::  May 30, 2012 - 9:42PM #23
Dostojevsky
Posts: 7,332

May 30, 2012 -- 12:28PM, Amin21 wrote:


To all those saying there are lies


I CHALLENGE them to identify ONE lie in any post against Assad posted here


ONE lie.


To those who say they are lies...


tell me do you have even ONE source from or in Syria?!


talking generically about lies and misinformation... without any information is a really poor form of denial as well as propaganda...


the bodies are there Assad killed them




Yes we know all about those bodies and BBC excitement to publish the photo only to be found they hoodwinked people. You saw that on your news have yu not?


Assad has been targeted from the beginning. While the latest UN finding blames both sides, Assad accusers have decided it is his people who are to blame. Actually they've been saying it for months.


You want sources? It is on YOUR News surely? Perhaps not, perhaps your media is used like a rag to wipe the uncomfortale truths so that American people can take pride in how just and fair and noble their country is being ran. It makes them feel good, some of them; others see what is going on and the dead children of Libya and Syria are worth just as much as their own.


Australin gov is just as idiotic. Our Foreign Affairs minister decided it is Assad to blame long before Annan had a chance to say a word.


Amin, I am sorry about your family. We feel the pain more intensly when we know the people who have been killed or suffer. We know that in any country when civil war breaks out people are divided - one side supports one the other another. And the worst of human nature comes out. That is why we need Diplomats and people with wisdom and goodwill who will support solution towards peace and harmony and that is not done with threats. Threats are for bullies - I am bigger than you are do as I tell you** You can not chain God-given human dignity.

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2 years ago  ::  May 31, 2012 - 12:04AM #24
rangerken
Posts: 16,406

Amin asked a fair question.


Any specific replies...anyone? Anything at all?


I rather doubt it because he is 100% right.


Ken

Libertarian, Conservative, Life member of the NRA and VFW
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2 years ago  ::  May 31, 2012 - 12:49AM #25
SherriMunnerlyn
Posts: 7,492

May 30, 2012 -- 9:42PM, Dostojevsky wrote:


May 30, 2012 -- 12:28PM, Amin21 wrote:


To all those saying there are lies


I CHALLENGE them to identify ONE lie in any post against Assad posted here


ONE lie.


To those who say they are lies...


tell me do you have even ONE source from or in Syria?!


talking generically about lies and misinformation... without any information is a really poor form of denial as well as propaganda...


the bodies are there Assad killed them




Yes we know all about those bodies and BBC excitement to publish the photo only to be found they hoodwinked people. You saw that on your news have yu not?


Assad has been targeted from the beginning. While the latest UN finding blames both sides, Assad accusers have decided it is his people who are to blame. Actually they've been saying it for months.


You want sources? It is on YOUR News surely? Perhaps not, perhaps your media is used like a rag to wipe the uncomfortale truths so that American people can take pride in how just and fair and noble their country is being ran. It makes them feel good, some of them; others see what is going on and the dead children of Libya and Syria are worth just as much as their own.


Australin gov is just as idiotic. Our Foreign Affairs minister decided it is Assad to blame long before Annan had a chance to say a word.


Amin, I am sorry about your family. We feel the pain more intensly when we know the people who have been killed or suffer. We know that in any country when civil war breaks out people are divided - one side supports one the other another. And the worst of human nature comes out. That is why we need Diplomats and people with wisdom and goodwill who will support solution towards peace and harmony and that is not done with threats. Threats are for bullies - I am bigger than you are do as I tell you** You can not chain God-given human dignity.





Dos,


Robert Fisk wrote Pity the Nation about Lebanon's violent history of wars, and one of the. saddest things about it is how ordinary people are caught in the middle of proxy wars between outside nations.


Obviously, the Opposition forces are being funded and armed by enemies of Syria and Iran, that includes Western nations, and they are as responsible for the deaths in Syria as Assad is.


The fact that other posters will not accept the truth about all of that just shows us how some people cannot deal with the truth, they prefer distortions and lies and demonizing their enemies, no matter what cost that is to innocent civilians the violence and wars they support hurts and kills.


Dueling Arms Shipments: Is Syria Becoming a Proxy War?


Foreign Arms Undermining UN Ceasefire Efforts May 16, 2012


When the UN ceasefire is eventually declared a failure in Syria, there will be two official narratives on why. Western officials will insist, as they were already doing before it began, that the ceasefire was doomed because of the unique evil of Bashar Assad. The supporters of Assad will claim, by contrast, that the terrorist-style tactics of the rebels is to blame.


The rebels, who at one point were halting attacks simply because they had no ammunition, are now awash in weaponry, provided by GCC member nations (chiefly Saudi Arabia) and smuggled into the country by the US in an extremely loose definition of “non-lethal aid.” At the same time, officials say that Iran has been rushing weapons to the Assad regime, determined to save one of their closest allies from a Western-backed rebel force. This armament, however, is also having a deleterious effect on the peace process, and seems to be convincing the regime that the rebels can be defeated without negotiation if they simply “hold out” long enough.


In the end, Western officials will blame Iran’s weapons for the failure, as an excuse to escalate the war of words with Iran, while Iran and Russia will surely blamed the Western arms. In reality, both sides are undermining the ceasefire and turning Syria’s Civil War into a proxy war between NATO/GCC armed rebels and Russia/Iran backed government forces



news.antiwar.com/2012/05/16/dueling-arms...


 


Proxy War in Syria Threatens Catastrophe for the Middle East



iFrame Removed




In an effort to undermine Iran by overthrowing its strategic ally, Syria, western nations are using their Middle East client states to conduct a multi-pronged attack against Syria through the media, the Arab League, the United Nations and now through military proxy forces. This fact is widely recognized by many mainstream western media sources. For example, the well-connected pro-western magazine, the Economist, casually states: "Iran and Russia aide the [Syrian government] regime; Saudi Arabia and Turkey favor the rebels... Left alone, the rival camps will fuel a worsening conflict that could destabilize the entire region.” (January 28, 2012). ...

 




Sherri

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2 years ago  ::  May 31, 2012 - 2:26AM #26
Amin21
Posts: 4,643

"Yes we know all about those bodies and BBC excitement to publish the photo only to be found they hoodwinked people. You saw that on your news have yu not?"


I can expect that as ussual a lack of citation means a cruddy source that is probably hoodwinking people.


I do not know what photo you are talking about and haven't seen or watched BBC.


"Assad has been targeted from the beginning."


Assad is a murdering tyrrant so rightly so.


"While the latest UN finding blames both sides"


No it blames Assad and his Shabiha militias.


"Assad accusers have decided it is his people who are to blame."


Which is correct according to the UN... though you ignore this basic fact.


"Actually they've been saying it for months."


and it has been true for months.


"You want sources? It is on YOUR News surely?"


Well lets see... all credible sources point to Assad bein a murdering Tyrrant... I don't know WHAT sources you are possibly referring to.


"Perhaps not, perhaps your media is used like a rag to wipe the uncomfortale truths"


and what pray tell is my media... scape goating and strawman arguments will not avail you here...


In addition to American and British press I read the Arabic Press.


and actually have had first hand accounts relayed from actual Syrians.


Dos,


do you even know a Syrian... let alone a Sunni Syrian?


"so that American people can take pride in how just and fair and noble their country is being ran."


A fair and true statement.  America is being ran noblely and fairly.


"It makes them feel good, some of them; others see what is going on and the dead children of Libya and Syria are worth just as much as their own."


THat is right


THE DEAD CHILDREN AND OF LIBYA AND SYRIA DO HAVE VALUE


though you seem to think they do not.


yet that is why we send our bombs to destroy the tyrants murdering the Children.


As Qaddafi murdered Libyan children you point the finger at AMerica for stopping him...


As the murderous Serbs massacred Bosnian and Albanian Muslims... you cry foul at the US in its noble goal of stopping it...


"Australin gov is just as idiotic. Our Foreign Affairs minister decided it is Assad to blame"


which he is.


"long before Annan had a chance to say a word."


Yet Assad was clearly and undeniably responsible.


"Amin, I am sorry about your family."


No you are not.


"We feel the pain more intensly when we know the people who have been killed or suffer."


at Assad's hands.


"We know that in any country when civil war breaks out people are divided"


WHat you call a civil war is simply a one sided slaughter house on Assad's side... and those who are trying to live and speak out... and those who have taken on their right to defend themselves.


The people Assad is mass murdering didn't ask for a fight.


"one side supports one the other another. And the worst of human nature comes out."


Yes.  From Assad and his Shabiha.


"That is why we need Diplomats and people with wisdom and goodwill who will support solution towards peace and harmony and that is not done with threats."


No what we need is Assad's head on a chopping block.  No solution ending with Assad in power is acceptable.  Death is preferable to peace if peace means Assad stays in power.


"Threats are for bullies - I am bigger than you are do as I tell you** You can not chain God-given human dignity."


Yet you do that as you apologize for Assad and cast ridiculous assertions at the Syrian opposition.



You have so far failed the challenge... failed to answer my questions...


failed to provide reliable sources or any sources.


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2 years ago  ::  May 31, 2012 - 3:03AM #27
Amin21
Posts: 4,643

Sherri,


First I will say that...


you failed to show a SINGLE lie or piece of incorrect information that I have provided concerning Assad's treatment of Sunnis and his unrelenting massacres of Syria's Sunni community and clear sectarian mass human rights abuses that go as far as denying Sunnis basic medical services... access to food... in addition to the mass murder.


"Robert Fisk wrote Pity the Nation about Lebanon's violent history of wars, and one of the. saddest things about it is how ordinary people are caught in the middle of proxy wars between outside nations."


Except that it is a lie that the war in Syria is a proxy war, to add Robert Fisk is biased.


"Obviously, the Opposition forces are being funded and armed by enemies of Syria and Iran"


except the complete lack of evidence to support Assad's claims.  I WISH we were supporting the legitimate opposition against Syria's illegitimate government


"that includes Western nations, and they are as responsible for the deaths in Syria as Assad is."


I should ask for sources but at this point I know better... I will get a bunch of illegiitmate .orgs...


"The fact that other posters will not accept the truth about all of that"


Please which posters aren't accepting the truth exactly? Please CONFRONT them with facts... answer challenges show them where they are wrong using legitimate sources rather than subterfuge.


"just shows us how some people cannot deal with the truth"


Very rich coming from someone who fails to aknowledge truth and sources... and information.


The Truth is that Assad MUST go. That he is a murdering tyrant who massacres unarmed civilians daily and who makes Israel look like a charity organizations.


"they prefer distortions and lies and demonizing their enemies, no matter what cost that is to innocent civilians the violence and wars they support hurts and kills."


I challenge you to point out ONE lie...


you so far have failed to do so do to a lack of ability to identify any lies.


I hope the USA does start sending masses of weapons...


But lets talk about who is peddling the lies, shall we?


Assad is getting news tanks... artillery and rounds...


the rebels have AK47s....


Lets talk about competition...


and you are trying to paint some sort of equivilency.


what a crock.


BTW... "antiwar.com? really rich... considering the championing of a view that prefers to see Syria's people bombed into submission by their dictator.


"When the UN ceasefire is eventually declared a failure in Syria,"


Assad's forces never quit attacking innocent civilians... and the oppositions never quit defending themselves... there never was a ceasefire... but we did get the UN in there to confirm Assad's mass brutality and his massacres are no longer "unverified opposition propaganda".


"there will be two official narratives on why."


You are right. There will be the truth, that Assad never stopped murdering his poeple...

and the pro-Assad lie that it was "terrorists" and "armed groups".


riddle me this... when will Assad allow protesters to freely take to the strreet?


Sherri?


When do people get to protest openly? Right now only pro-regime demonstrations go untouched.


"Western officials will insist, as they were already doing before it began, that the ceasefire was doomed because of the unique evil of Bashar Assad."


This will be 100% true.


"The supporters of Assad will claim, by contrast, that the terrorist-style tactics of the rebels is to blame."


except that the rebels have yety to resort to terrorism... and we have yet to see the tactics we saw in Iraq (that Assad sponsored) be used in Syria.  We have not seen churches... mosques or market places in ethnically concentrated areas bombed by the opposition...


Despite the fact that Assad is bombing and shelling and murdering in a manner that borders on ethnic cleansing or at least ethnic targeting.  In a word Assa'd supporter will as they have all along... be lying. Afterall these protests started as

Syrians have not forgotten how all this started... peaceful protests... and Assads mass murder and round ups.


Assad IS evil.  He has no legitimacy.  He must die or run.  Peace is not an option while Assad remains in power.  Assad has shown that he will simply continue to round up those who are on his lists at his leisure the second they lay down arms. 


***"The rebels, who at one point were halting attacks simply because they had no ammunition, are now awash in weaponry***


anyone aware of the humanitarian situation knows this is not true... and the main source for weapons in the opposition has always been....


The Syrian Army.


Of course that doesn't stop Shabiha in Damascus from groping women and arresting them for simply having a small pocket knife...


Of course a simple review of you non-source... the speculation rag that lacks information or sourcing "antiwar.com" simply has no proof of the ridiculous accusation except coincidence... and Assad has been racking his brain to try and prove it... but he still relies on "weapons caches" with Syrian Army serial numbers on state TV and tortured confessions to prove what you site couldn't show was true either.


No I am afraid the rebels need weapons but they are simply not getting what they need.


I do hope we start sending weapons soon though.



Iran is "Determined to save one of their closest allies from a Western-backed rebel force."


Except that this is not a "western backed rebel force" but rather a popular uprising against a tyrant.


"This armament, however, is also having a deleterious effect on the peace process"


There can be NO peace process as long as Assad is breathing and in command.  Asking the Syrian people to make peace with Assad's rogue regime while Assad remains in charge is like asking rape victims to marry their rapist.  I remember a good quote that suggests asking the opposition to kindly and peacefully request Assad to withdraw from the cities while he is penetrating them... is akin to asking a rape victim to kindly ask the same.


www.maysaloon.org



"In the end, Western officials will blame Iran’s weapons for the failure, as an excuse to escalate the war of words with Iran, while Iran and Russia will surely blamed the Western arms."


What western arms are you referring to... do you have a reliable source?


"In reality, both sides are undermining the ceasefire"


The ceasefire gave Assad legitimacy that he never deserved.  We need to accept the Syrian National Council as the representative of Syrian in the UN and expel Assad's  representation... and the Arab league should do the same.


I don't care if the "ceasefire" that never was succeeds.  I want Assad out.  The Syrian people were not chanting in the streets in crowds of 100s of thousands... "The people want a ceasefire with Assad" they were chanting "The people want the toppling of the regime"


It is high time the USA helps them get what they asked for and end the evil hegemony of Iran and Assad in Syria once and for all.



"and turning Syria’s Civil War into a proxy war between NATO/GCC armed rebels and Russia/Iran backed government forces"


THis is quite frankly not what is happening.  All we have to do is blockade Syria from receiving any Arms and makes sure we supply the opposition well... and Assad's well will dry up.  You call it a proxy war... but really only want the status quo...


If anything Assad's actions have shown that he needs to go much more than Bin Ali and Mubarak who stepped aside more or less gracefully.


What kind of world would we live in where we reward such behavior.

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2 years ago  ::  May 31, 2012 - 6:53AM #28
Dostojevsky
Posts: 7,332

Amin, you don't know what photos?


Of 100 dead children wrapped in white sheeting? Not on your News?


I saw it on every channel here as soon as the story broke out. IT was full-on for the first 24hrs and then it was pulled because ABC could not carry on with the lie, another photo from another war. It worked, everybody jumped on the waggon to accuse Assad. Even our Foreign Affairs minister.


No link in the world will satisfy and you'll find it wrong from the wrong person or wrong news provider. Everything I said is all over the internet.


You can only 'see' truth if prepared to be 100% wrong or 100% right. I would gladly swing with the crowd - on the winning side right? but don't see it the right thing to do  as it is the same scenario what happened in Libya. Read on what's happening in that country now after that 'nasty' dictaor has been killed. It is total chaos. Is that what you want for your relatives? You think they will be safe from humanitarian bombs?


 


 


 

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2 years ago  ::  May 31, 2012 - 8:34AM #29
SherriMunnerlyn
Posts: 7,492

May 31, 2012 -- 6:53AM, Dostojevsky wrote:


Amin, you don't know what photos?


Of 100 dead children wrapped in white sheeting? Not on your News?


I saw it on every channel here as soon as the story broke out. IT was full-on for the first 24hrs and then it was pulled because ABC could not carry on with the lie, another photo from another war. It worked, everybody jumped on the waggon to accuse Assad. Even our Foreign Affairs minister.


No link in the world will satisfy and you'll find it wrong from the wrong person or wrong news provider. Everything I said is all over the internet.


You can only 'see' truth if prepared to be 100% wrong or 100% right. I would gladly swing with the crowd - on the winning side right? but don't see it the right thing to do  as it is the same scenario what happened in Libya. Read on what's happening in that country now after that 'nasty' dictaor has been killed. It is total chaos. Is that what you want for your relatives? You think they will be safe from humanitarian bombs?


 


 


 




Dos,


And in the changing Middle East, the legacy of a war the US initiated in Iraq, that caused over 1 million to die, the newest emerging alliance , growing stronger every day, is between Iran and Malaki's government in Iraq.


Iran and Iraq must create alliance to become a great power, says Iranian official



Iran’s first vice president Mohammed Ridha Rihaimi said that if Tehran and Baghdad were to create an alliance, they will “form a great international power,” the Iranian Mehr News Agency reported on Sunday.



Rihaimi’s comments came after a meeting with Iraqi President Nuri al-Maliki during his two-day visit to Tehran.



He pointed out to the two countries’ “special relations,” and how both were facing “international conspiracies due to their beliefs and goals.” He did not elaborate on what these beliefs or goals include.



The two countries’ trade agreements must be speedily fulfilled, he added. The agreements include railway projects connecting the two neighboring countries and cooperation between their oil and airline industries.



On Monday, after Maliki’s meeting with Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, both leaders reiterated Rihaimi’s statement and said that it is “necessary” to execute these trade agreements




english.alarabiya.net/articles/2012/04/2...


Sherri

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2 years ago  ::  May 31, 2012 - 9:47AM #30
Amin21
Posts: 4,643

Sherri,


trying to change the subject doesn't get you off the hook from backing up your claims.


A bit off topic...


and the concept of an "international conspiracy" against Syria is more baathist BS when it comes down to it.

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