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2 years ago  ::  May 29, 2012 - 11:22PM #21
teilhard
Posts: 48,277

Unfortunately, Industrial-Scale Agriculture is PART of what is KILLING The Living Planet Earth, which ultimately comes back upon us well-meaning Humans who sincerely want to "Feed The World" with our near-Miraculous Technologies of Chemical Fertilizers and Chemical Pesticides ...


May 29, 2012 -- 8:53PM, CharikIeia wrote:


May 29, 2012 -- 6:58PM, Roodog wrote:


If our agriculture fails who is going to feed the rest of the continent and the world?



As was pointed out several times before on this thread (didn't you read that??), producers in other nations will be much more capable to grow & sell(!) their own food once they are not priced out of the market by US monoculture produce any more.





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2 years ago  ::  May 29, 2012 - 11:27PM #22
Roodog
Posts: 10,168

May 29, 2012 -- 8:53PM, CharikIeia wrote:


May 29, 2012 -- 6:58PM, Roodog wrote:


If our agriculture fails who is going to feed the rest of the continent and the world?



As was pointed out several times before on this thread (didn't you read that??), producers in other nations will be much more capable to grow & sell(!) their own food once they are not priced out of the market by US monoculture produce any more.





Only if the countries would be legally and economically allowed, Chari. Companies like Montsanto are striving to establish an international monopoly on food. It is not unheard of that American companies would buy up farmland in other countries to control the food market.

For those who have faith, no explanation is neccessary.
For those who have no faith, no explanation is possible.

St. Thomas Aquinas

If one turns his ear from hearing the Law, even his prayer is an abomination. Proverbs 28:9
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2 years ago  ::  May 30, 2012 - 2:42PM #23
TemplarS
Posts: 6,249

There are several aspects to this.


Local  droughts (which can and will happen anyplace- at any time- climate change or not).


Long term droughts (or other impacts) of climate change.


Agricultural practices, agribusiness, monoculture.


And government action (or inaction).


In the ideal the world would have a rational food production system, with enough diversity to allow one region to pick up the slack in responding to regional droughts, and enough flexibility to encourage food production in different areas in response to long term climatic trends.  How to achieve this is good question.  Usually this is the sort of situation where free markets excel; but, when free markets lead to excessive concentration of economic power (aka agribusiness)  they tend to lead to shortages and higher prices in the name of profits  rather than the opposite (witness recent drug shortages).  But government intervention rarely tends to improve things either; free trade is being criticized here (probably because in this case free trade= agribusiness)  but protectionism is no answer either.  We need to be able to leverage world-wide food production to deal with local crises (which will always happen).   Plus, in many third world countries governments are ineffective (the world could have managed to easily feed people in Somalia or Sudan, had not local "government" or the lack thereof stood in the way). 


 


 


 


 


 


 

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2 years ago  ::  May 30, 2012 - 6:20PM #24
Roodog
Posts: 10,168

May 30, 2012 -- 2:42PM, TemplarS wrote:


There are several aspects to this.


Local  droughts (which can and will happen anyplace- at any time- climate change or not).


Long term droughts (or other impacts) of climate change.


Agricultural practices, agribusiness, monoculture.


And government action (or inaction).


In the ideal the world would have a rational food production system, with enough diversity to allow one region to pick up the slack in responding to regional droughts, and enough flexibility to encourage food production in different areas in response to long term climatic trends.  How to achieve this is good question.  Usually this is the sort of situation where free markets excel; but, when free markets lead to excessive concentration of economic power (aka agribusiness)  they tend to lead to shortages and higher prices in the name of profits  rather than the opposite (witness recent drug shortages).  But government intervention rarely tends to improve things either; free trade is being criticized here (probably because in this case free trade= agribusiness)  but protectionism is no answer either.  We need to be able to leverage world-wide food production to deal with local crises (which will always happen).   Plus, in many third world countries governments are ineffective (the world could have managed to easily feed people in Somalia or Sudan, had not local "government" or the lack thereof stood in the way). 


 


 


 You forgot about the influence held by US companies over this and other Governments.


 


 


 





For those who have faith, no explanation is neccessary.
For those who have no faith, no explanation is possible.

St. Thomas Aquinas

If one turns his ear from hearing the Law, even his prayer is an abomination. Proverbs 28:9
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2 years ago  ::  May 31, 2012 - 3:11AM #25
CharikIeia
Posts: 8,303

May 29, 2012 -- 11:27PM, Roodog wrote:


Companies like Montsanto are striving to establish an international monopoly on food. It is not unheard of that American companies would buy up farmland in other countries to control the food market.



Yes, that is sadly true, Roodog.


When these other nations nationalise the foreign "investments", however, also otherwise rational people cry "foul" and "commie" and "this goes against free trade"...


In Europe, more precisely Spain, there has been much outrage when Argentina nationalised its Repsol-owned oil fields (Repsol is the biggest Spanish crude oil company). The Argentinians were feeling that nothing much was happeining in terms of investment & development & exploitation of the oil fields, so they took it into their own hands again. Argentina needs jobs and income.


Who can blame them with a straight face?


It's a non-food example.
With arable land & food production, such "investments" are even more insidious.

tl;dr
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2 years ago  ::  May 31, 2012 - 9:00AM #26
TemplarS
Posts: 6,249

Char, the problem is, when you nationalize a big corporation, all you get is a poorly run big corporation.  When you nationalize (or "collectivize", as it used to be quaintly called) farming, you get a catastrophe.


Government planning of economic activities, in particular those involving production, has just not worked. 


I am not denying that the opposite (unregulated free enterprise) has problems as well. 


The difficulty is finding the right balance; particularly as that balance is clearly different for different businesses and industries.  I am of the opinion, for example, that the free market system as applied to financial industries has very little to recommend it.  OTOH, the innovation driven by free markets in manufacturing does not generally benefit from government control (though it can benefit from government support)


I'm not in the ag business, so I have no real answers.  I would think that some balance between free markets operating on the level of individual producers and some level of government support to insure a minimum level of production would work.  I agree with you and other posters that large agribusinesses are in the whole far more harmful than beneficial, and that the current state of things where their money buys political influence and drives policy, is a very bad thing indeed.

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2 years ago  ::  May 31, 2012 - 12:48PM #27
Roodog
Posts: 10,168

May 31, 2012 -- 3:11AM, CharikIeia wrote:


May 29, 2012 -- 11:27PM, Roodog wrote:


Companies like Montsanto are striving to establish an international monopoly on food. It is not unheard of that American companies would buy up farmland in other countries to control the food market.



Yes, that is sadly true, Roodog.


When these other nations nationalise the foreign "investments", however, also otherwise rational people cry "foul" and "commie" and "this goes against free trade"...


In Europe, more precisely Spain, there has been much outrage when Argentina nationalised its Repsol-owned oil fields (Repsol is the biggest Spanish crude oil company). The Argentinians were feeling that nothing much was happeining in terms of investment & development & exploitation of the oil fields, so they took it into their own hands again. Argentina needs jobs and income.


Argentina acted well within the tradition of Spanish jurisprudence going back to the Middle Ages. "The Law of the Seven Parts" decreed that the Crown owned all mineral rights, be it gold, silver, coal or oil.


Who can blame them with a straight face?


It's a non-food example.
With arable land & food production, such "investments" are even more insidious.


This is a part of Globalism which leaves me ill at ease, the "New World Order" is headquartered in the First World and is for the benefit of the Developed World. The Third and Fourth World is merely a source of natural and human resources to be exploited and the chips are down, totally expendable. Coincidentally, the Developed World is mostly white and the Third and Fourth is not. The "herrenvolk" concept is alive and well.





For those who have faith, no explanation is neccessary.
For those who have no faith, no explanation is possible.

St. Thomas Aquinas

If one turns his ear from hearing the Law, even his prayer is an abomination. Proverbs 28:9
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 01, 2012 - 1:51PM #28
BDboy
Posts: 4,554

May 24, 2012 -- 12:08AM, arielg wrote:


There is a new trade agreement with Colombia.  Some  farmers there (not all of them. Flower growers are fine)  are worried they are going to have  the same problem.




 


>>>>>>> If this is true, I cannot blame them.

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 12, 2012 - 12:39PM #29
rangerken
Posts: 15,821

This thread was moved from the Hot Topics Zone

Libertarian, Conservative, Life member of the NRA and VFW
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2 years ago  ::  Jun 25, 2012 - 5:54PM #30
catboxer
Posts: 13,701

It looks to me like we're just going to have to get serious about growing more of our own.


If we get halfways good at it, we'll be better off, and I don't think they can take that away from us.

Adepto vestri stercore simul.ttr
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