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Switch to Forum Live View Marriage as a legal contract
2 years ago  ::  May 21, 2012 - 2:29AM #1
Unworthyone
Posts: 2,946

Catboxer posted this link in another thread titled, Big upset in Nebraska, and I thought that one of the points made by the author  warranted its own thread.

www.salon.com/2012/05/20/whats_the_deal_...


Towards the end of the article, (really a book excerpt) the author turns to the matter of marriage.
The author brings up an interesting point regarding one state having to (or not having to) recognize the marriages performed in other states. The reference point is the U.S. Constitution, article 4, which requires states to recognize and honor each others contracts.  A marriage is in my understanding, a contract, with obligations, rights and privileges that bind both parties in the marriage.  As such, are states obligated to recognize the marriage contracts of other states, just as they are obligated to recognize legally binding contracts of other states?


As far as I know, every state recognizes my marital status. If I move to another state, I'm just as married as I was in the state where the license was obtained, and I retain all the rights and obligations that the marriage contract holds.  This is true, even if the laws of one state differ from another.  Some states require a stipulated time of residence.  Some states require blood tests.  Some allow closer relatives than others to marry.  In all of these differences, the contract of marriage is upheld, regardless of where that contract was obtained.


But what of gay marriages?  Can a state declare a couple married elsewhere is not married in that state?  Does a place of residence nullify a marriage contract performed elsewhere?  What about the rights of inheritance and survivorship?  Suppose a couple was married for many years, accumulated  substantial wealth in a state that recognized and allowed gay marriage, and then the employer transferred one or the other to a state that does not recognize or allow gay marriage?  What happens to the wealth?  What if one spouse dies intestate (without a will?)  What if there are adopted (or natural) children?  What about medical power of attorney, or hospital visitations?


In all states a surviving spouse is recognized as next of kin.  Will this hold true for gay couples?  And what of rights regarding things like social security survivor's benefits? Or federal pensions?  The federal government recognizes and upholds marriages from all states.  Will this hold true for gay couples?


In other words, is this a can of worms, or what?


I never consider a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend.  Thomas Jefferson

Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind.
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You can get anything you want out of life if you will just help enough other people get what they want. Zig Ziglar

http://www.nytimes.com/1991/03/29/opinion/why-i-m-for-the-brady-bill.html
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2 years ago  ::  May 21, 2012 - 8:50AM #2
teilhard
Posts: 51,418

I wouldn't call it a "Can of Worms," but rather, "Life," which IS complicated and rife with Possibilities ...


But having said that ... My "Minnesota" Fishing License is Valid ONLY in Minnesota -- NOT in Montana or Texas ... I dunno ...

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2 years ago  ::  May 21, 2012 - 8:52AM #3
Sacrificialgoddess
Posts: 9,496

May 21, 2012 -- 8:50AM, teilhard wrote:


I wouldn't call it a "Can of Worms," but rather, "Life," which IS complicated and rife with Possibilities ...


But having said that ... My "Minnesota" Fishing License is Valid ONLY in Minnesota -- NOT in Montana or Texas ... I dunno ...




But your driver's license works in every state.

Dark Energy. It can be found in the observable Universe. Found in ratios of 75% more than any other substance. Dark Energy. It can be found in religious extremists, in cheerleaders. To come to the conclusion that Dark signifies mean and malevolent would define 75% of the Universe as an evil force. Alternatively, to think that some cheerleaders don't have razors in their snatch is to be foolishly unarmed.

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2 years ago  ::  May 21, 2012 - 9:00AM #4
teilhard
Posts: 51,418

Yup ... So do my "Sunglasses" ...


It's "Life" ...


May 21, 2012 -- 8:52AM, Sacrificialgoddess wrote:


May 21, 2012 -- 8:50AM, teilhard wrote:


I wouldn't call it a "Can of Worms," but rather, "Life," which IS complicated and rife with Possibilities ...


But having said that ... My "Minnesota" Fishing License is Valid ONLY in Minnesota -- NOT in Montana or Texas ... I dunno ...




But your driver's license works in every state.





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2 years ago  ::  May 21, 2012 - 9:03AM #5
amcolph
Posts: 17,694

May 21, 2012 -- 2:29AM, Unworthyone wrote:


 


In all states a surviving spouse is recognized as next of kin.  Will this hold true for gay couples?  And what of rights regarding things like social security survivor's benefits? Or federal pensions?  The federal government recognizes and upholds marriages from all states.  Will this hold true for gay couples?


In other words, is this a can of worms, or what?





That's what the Defense of Marriage act  (DOMA) is all about.  It specifically exempts states--and the Federal Government--from having to recognize the marriages of SS couples contracted in other states which allow them, as the Constitution would otherwise require them to do. 

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2 years ago  ::  May 21, 2012 - 9:12AM #6
TENAC
Posts: 26,644

May 21, 2012 -- 2:29AM, Unworthyone wrote:


Catboxer posted this link in another thread titled, Big upset in Nebraska, and I thought that one of the points made by the author  warranted its own thread.

www.salon.com/2012/05/20/whats_the_deal_...


Towards the end of the article, (really a book excerpt) the author turns to the matter of marriage.
The author brings up an interesting point regarding one state having to (or not having to) recognize the marriages performed in other states. The reference point is the U.S. Constitution, article 4, which requires states to recognize and honor each others contracts.  A marriage is in my understanding, a contract, with obligations, rights and privileges that bind both parties in the marriage.  As such, are states obligated to recognize the marriage contracts of other states, just as they are obligated to recognize legally binding contracts of other states?


As far as I know, every state recognizes my marital status. If I move to another state, I'm just as married as I was in the state where the license was obtained, and I retain all the rights and obligations that the marriage contract holds.  This is true, even if the laws of one state differ from another.  Some states require a stipulated time of residence.  Some states require blood tests.  Some allow closer relatives than others to marry.  In all of these differences, the contract of marriage is upheld, regardless of where that contract was obtained.


But what of gay marriages?  Can a state declare a couple married elsewhere is not married in that state?  Does a place of residence nullify a marriage contract performed elsewhere?  What about the rights of inheritance and survivorship?  Suppose a couple was married for many years, accumulated  substantial wealth in a state that recognized and allowed gay marriage, and then the employer transferred one or the other to a state that does not recognize or allow gay marriage?  What happens to the wealth?  What if one spouse dies intestate (without a will?)  What if there are adopted (or natural) children?  What about medical power of attorney, or hospital visitations?


In all states a surviving spouse is recognized as next of kin.  Will this hold true for gay couples?  And what of rights regarding things like social security survivor's benefits? Or federal pensions?  The federal government recognizes and upholds marriages from all states.  Will this hold true for gay couples?


In other words, is this a can of worms, or what?





In a civil union, why would that not suffice?

Any man can count the seeds in an apple....
.......but only God can count the apples in the seeds.
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2 years ago  ::  May 21, 2012 - 9:25AM #7
teilhard
Posts: 51,418

IOW, on the Face of it, The DOMA is un-Constitutional ...


May 21, 2012 -- 9:03AM, amcolph wrote:


May 21, 2012 -- 2:29AM, Unworthyone wrote:


 


In all states a surviving spouse is recognized as next of kin.  Will this hold true for gay couples?  And what of rights regarding things like social security survivor's benefits? Or federal pensions?  The federal government recognizes and upholds marriages from all states.  Will this hold true for gay couples?


In other words, is this a can of worms, or what?





That's what the Defense of Marriage act  (DOMA) is all about.  It specifically exempts states--and the Federal Government--from having to recognize the marriages of SS couples contracted in other states which allow them, as the Constitution would otherwise require them to do. 





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2 years ago  ::  May 21, 2012 - 9:30AM #8
arielg
Posts: 9,116

If a state doesn't recognize gay marriage, why would it recognize it if it is done in another state? What would be the point of state rights if it has to automatically accept what other states do?


The idea of quasi-sovereign states rights  may have been appropiate to the 18th century, but is nonsense today for almost everything. 

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2 years ago  ::  May 21, 2012 - 9:36AM #9
teilhard
Posts: 51,418

The "States' Rights" Complication is still with us ...


May 21, 2012 -- 9:30AM, arielg wrote:


If a state doesn't recognize gay marriage, why would it recognize it if it is done in another state? What would be the point of state rights if it has to automatically accept what other states do?


The idea of quasi-sovereign states rights  may have been appropiate to the 18th century, but is nonsense today for almost everything. 





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2 years ago  ::  May 21, 2012 - 10:04AM #10
Fodaoson
Posts: 11,158

This from a thread in  Hot Topics Zone  forums: A basic  issue is ‘“Civil marriage is a civil right and a matter of civil law,” Benjamin Todd Jealous, president and CEO of the 103-year-old NAACP said in a statement.”


That is also my stand that from a social view point it is civil contract creating family unit, from and individual  or an individual  religious  view point it is a commitment to  “love ,honor, cherish for richer or poorer…”


From LA Times (May 19,2012):


In a move that some called historic, the county’s oldest African American civil rights group voted Saturday to endorse same-sex marriage.


The National Assn. for the Advancement of Colored People passed a resolution supporting gay marriage at a meeting of its board of directors in Miami, saying it opposed any policy or legislative initiative that “seeks to codify discrimination or hatred into the law or to remove the constitutional rights of LGBT citizens.”…


The vote marks a national turning point on the issue of gay marriage. President Obama announced this month that he supports gay marriage. A Gallup Poll last year found, for the first time in the poll’s history, that a majority of Americans supported the legalization of gay marriage, 53% to 45%. This year, the poll showed 50% supported it, while 48% opposed it.


“Civil marriage is a civil right and a matter of civil law,” Benjamin Todd Jealous, president and CEO of the 103-year-old NAACP said in a statement.


“The NAACP’s support for marriage equality is deeply rooted in the 14th Amendment of the United States Constitution and equal protection of all people.”…



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