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Switch to Forum Live View Unfortunately for Israel: Egyptians Want A Palestinian State
2 years ago  ::  May 30, 2012 - 11:56AM #31
rangerken
Posts: 16,408

May 30, 2012 -- 1:44AM, SherriMunnerlyn wrote:


What I was just informed of in an email is that in this year’s budget request, President Obama proposed increasing military aid to Israel to $3.1 billion.


And I further just read that the House Appropriations Subcommittee on Defense approved earlier this month an additional $949 million in weapons, meaning that we as taxpayers may be giving Israel a whopping $4 billion in military aid this year—roughly 25 percent more than last year. 


It sounds like we need a national campaign to stop all of this.


Sherri




Having a strong Israel as a friend and ally in the Middle East is in our national interests. And being able to depend on Israel's military is less expensive than what it would cost us to provide the necessary forces ouselves. Also, Israel has nver once asked for American troops...the Israelis are perfectly capable of putting their own lives on the line. Helping them logistically is a very GOOD idea we should not only agree with but fully support. I'm glad to say that our congressional delegation, all but one Democrats, in my very liberal state of Massachusetts strongly support aid to Israel.


As for a national campaign, I'm all for one that helps target Hamas and Hezbollah.


And I'm all for reducing what we give to Egypt and Pakistan...by a lot...and using that to aid Israel. And I'm all for completely eliminating anything we send to the Palestinians until they get rid of Hamas! Then I'd be OK with sending non fungible aid to the Palestinians...meaning food and medicine but NEVER money!


Ken

Libertarian, Conservative, Life member of the NRA and VFW
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2 years ago  ::  May 30, 2012 - 12:08PM #32
vra
Posts: 6,403

May 29, 2012 -- 5:54PM, KindredSai wrote:


May 28, 2012 -- 1:43PM, vra wrote:


May 27, 2012 -- 12:26PM, KindredSai wrote:



And furthermore have negotiations led to autonomy? No.





And exactly whom should Israel negotiate with?  Hamas?  Hezbollah?  How do you "negotiate" with groups that continue to insist that they are not going to negotiate or agree to anything less than complete domination?  And if Israel negotiates with Abbas, how can that work out unless the other factions are on board with him?


Negotiations at this point are just for p.r., nothing is likely to come out of them, and even the peacenik Israelis now realize that.  As what was said about Arafat, the Palestinian leaders have not missed an opportunity to miss an opportunity.  Until Hamas and Hezbollah are willing to stop their attacks and seriously go for peace, the fighting will continue-- unfortunately. 




The more pertinent question is who should Palestinians negotiate with? The Israeli right-wing dominates the Israeli current government akin to the Front National in France, BNP and Greece's right wing. Palestinians for the most part have a Secular Fatah government in charge.


I accept your comment about Hamas and Hezbollah but they are not lead in negotiations, the Secular left-wing Fatah is. And Hamas and Hezbollah as well other groups can be politically weakened with engaging with the Secular components of the Palestinian government.


Unfortunately, the Israeli rhetoric consists of negotiate about a future Palestinian State while we build on that State, that is NOT negotiation.


I also always find it highly boring when Israelis moan about Hamas when they helped nurture their growth in the 1970s and 1980s against the Secular PLO.







If serious negotiations were possible, it would be in Israel's best interest to engage in them and find a peaceful agreement.  However, it has become abundantly clear to Israeli's in general, including the peaceniks, that serious negotiations are not possible under the present situation.  And if there is any doubt about this, then one would be hard put to explain why we find the "right-wing" being so dominant at this juncture.  Israel has been burnt too many times, and they're done playing that game since every concession they've made has just been used to pump up the radicals and invite new attacks on Israeli civilians.


Second, there are negotions that have gone on with the P.A. and, unfortunately, they've gone nowhere.  I agree that it's hypothetically conceivable that the Israeli government could negotiate with them minus Hamas and Hezbollah, but that's not even agreable to Abbas.  And even if such an agreement could supposedly be reached, I seriously think that Abbas' life expectancy would be lessened, and it ain't because of the Israelis.


The settlement is another issue that we might talk about at some other time, and your last point about Israel's previous support for Hamas is a bit of a smokescreen since there were reasons why Israel did that, and it had to do with an attempt at peace if you know the history of why they did that.


Again, serious negotiations are dead, and unless there's a change in the position of Hamas and Hezbollah, it ain't gonna produce anything substantial except maybe a temporary cease-fire. 

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2 years ago  ::  May 30, 2012 - 12:13PM #33
vra
Posts: 6,403

May 30, 2012 -- 11:56AM, rangerken wrote:


May 30, 2012 -- 1:44AM, SherriMunnerlyn wrote:


What I was just informed of in an email is that in this year’s budget request, President Obama proposed increasing military aid to Israel to $3.1 billion.


And I further just read that the House Appropriations Subcommittee on Defense approved earlier this month an additional $949 million in weapons, meaning that we as taxpayers may be giving Israel a whopping $4 billion in military aid this year—roughly 25 percent more than last year. 


It sounds like we need a national campaign to stop all of this.


Sherri




Having a strong Israel as a friend and ally in the Middle East is in our national interests. And being able to depend on Israel's military is less expensive than what it would cost us to provide the necessary forces ouselves. Also, Israel has nver once asked for American troops...the Israelis are perfectly capable of putting their own lives on the line. Helping them logistically is a very GOOD idea we should not only agree with but fully support. I'm glad to say that our congressional delegation, all but one Democrats, in my very liberal state of Massachusetts strongly support aid to Israel.


As for a national campaign, I'm all for one that helps target Hamas and Hezbollah.


And I'm all for reducing what we give to Egypt and Pakistan...by a lot...and using that to aid Israel. And I'm all for completely eliminating anything we send to the Palestinians until they get rid of Hamas! Then I'd be OK with sending non fungible aid to the Palestinians...meaning food and medicine but NEVER money!


Ken


 




Ken, just a note to say I agree with you on this, plus let me just add that I think it's a mistake that some believe that we just give this money away for no reason and don't get anything in return for it. 

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2 years ago  ::  May 31, 2012 - 6:18PM #34
KindredSai
Posts: 5,756

May 30, 2012 -- 12:08PM, vra wrote:


May 29, 2012 -- 5:54PM, KindredSai wrote:


May 28, 2012 -- 1:43PM, vra wrote:


May 27, 2012 -- 12:26PM, KindredSai wrote:



And furthermore have negotiations led to autonomy? No.





And exactly whom should Israel negotiate with?  Hamas?  Hezbollah?  How do you "negotiate" with groups that continue to insist that they are not going to negotiate or agree to anything less than complete domination?  And if Israel negotiates with Abbas, how can that work out unless the other factions are on board with him?


Negotiations at this point are just for p.r., nothing is likely to come out of them, and even the peacenik Israelis now realize that.  As what was said about Arafat, the Palestinian leaders have not missed an opportunity to miss an opportunity.  Until Hamas and Hezbollah are willing to stop their attacks and seriously go for peace, the fighting will continue-- unfortunately. 




The more pertinent question is who should Palestinians negotiate with? The Israeli right-wing dominates the Israeli current government akin to the Front National in France, BNP and Greece's right wing. Palestinians for the most part have a Secular Fatah government in charge.


I accept your comment about Hamas and Hezbollah but they are not lead in negotiations, the Secular left-wing Fatah is. And Hamas and Hezbollah as well other groups can be politically weakened with engaging with the Secular components of the Palestinian government.


Unfortunately, the Israeli rhetoric consists of negotiate about a future Palestinian State while we build on that State, that is NOT negotiation.


I also always find it highly boring when Israelis moan about Hamas when they helped nurture their growth in the 1970s and 1980s against the Secular PLO.







If serious negotiations were possible, it would be in Israel's best interest to engage in them and find a peaceful agreement.  However, it has become abundantly clear to Israeli's in general, including the peaceniks, that serious negotiations are not possible under the present situation.  And if there is any doubt about this, then one would be hard put to explain why we find the "right-wing" being so dominant at this juncture.  Israel has been burnt too many times, and they're done playing that game since every concession they've made has just been used to pump up the radicals and invite new attacks on Israeli civilians.


Second, there are negotions that have gone on with the P.A. and, unfortunately, they've gone nowhere.  I agree that it's hypothetically conceivable that the Israeli government could negotiate with them minus Hamas and Hezbollah, but that's not even agreable to Abbas.  And even if such an agreement could supposedly be reached, I seriously think that Abbas' life expectancy would be lessened, and it ain't because of the Israelis.


The settlement is another issue that we might talk about at some other time, and your last point about Israel's previous support for Hamas is a bit of a smokescreen since there were reasons why Israel did that, and it had to do with an attempt at peace if you know the history of why they did that.


Again, serious negotiations are dead, and unless there's a change in the position of Hamas and Hezbollah, it ain't gonna produce anything substantial except maybe a temporary cease-fire. 




I think Hamas and Hezbollah is a red herring because they both can be as I have stated diplomatically weakened with further engagement of Fatah and the climate for a viable Palestinian State.


About exclusion of Hamas and Hezbollah from talks, this is already of course an option. Hezbollah is Lebanese of course and Hamas has been for the most part excluded from the PNC cabinet for a long time. There was always one pre-condition by Erekat and Abbas that Israel would halt settlement construction in order for a viable Palestinian State.


Secondly unless you cannot give me a good reason why Israel previously supported Hamas, when Hamas always maintained it's murderous rhetoric against Jews. But please do use your excuse of telling me another time.

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2 years ago  ::  May 31, 2012 - 6:56PM #35
LeahOne
Posts: 16,402

Ksai, would you like to edit that, please?   I'm not sure what you're actually asking.


As far as HAMAS being 'supported by Israel' - since other nations have done very similar stupid things, it's entirely irrelevant IMO.  Singling out Israel appears suspiciously like 'racism' (for lack of a more accurate term)....


Without the purported 'support from Israel', it seems that HAMAS would still be around, still with its racist hate speech in its Charter -and still hooked on trying to murder as many Jews around the world as possible.


Unless, of course, you are certain you can provide incontrovertible proof that "Israeli support" was THE deciding factor as to why HAMAS is still here and still murderous?   Since you are the one constantily bringing up "Israeli support", I submit the burden of such proof is on you and not anyone else.

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2 years ago  ::  May 31, 2012 - 7:28PM #36
KindredSai
Posts: 5,756

May 31, 2012 -- 6:56PM, LeahOne wrote:


Ksai, would you like to edit that, please?   I'm not sure what you're actually asking.


As far as HAMAS being 'supported by Israel' - since other nations have done very similar stupid things, it's entirely irrelevant IMO.  Singling out Israel appears suspiciously like 'racism' (for lack of a more accurate term)....


Without the purported 'support from Israel', it seems that HAMAS would still be around, still with its racist hate speech in its Charter -and still hooked on trying to murder as many Jews around the world as possible.


Unless, of course, you are certain you can provide incontrovertible proof that "Israeli support" was THE deciding factor as to why HAMAS is still here and still murderous?   Since you are the one constantily bringing up "Israeli support", I submit the burden of such proof is on you and not anyone else.




No it's not irrelevant. Simply saying other nations have done similar things is not a valid reason.


I don't think Hamas would be as dominant as it would have been without it's initial support from Israel seen as Israel funded the Muslim Brotherhood projects in the early beginnings, helping their growth.


My main point is Israel cannot complain about Hamas without accepting some responsibility for the situation. It's current policies now of collective punishment and interventions are nurturing further expansion.

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 01, 2012 - 11:59AM #37
vra
Posts: 6,403

May 31, 2012 -- 6:18PM, KindredSai wrote:


I think Hamas and Hezbollah is a red herring because they both can be as I have stated diplomatically weakened with further engagement of Fatah and the climate for a viable Palestinian State.


About exclusion of Hamas and Hezbollah from talks, this is already of course an option. Hezbollah is Lebanese of course and Hamas has been for the most part excluded from the PNC cabinet for a long time. There was always one pre-condition by Erekat and Abbas that Israel would halt settlement construction in order for a viable Palestinian State.


Secondly unless you cannot give me a good reason why Israel previously supported Hamas, when Hamas always maintained it's murderous rhetoric against Jews. But please do use your excuse of telling me another time.





Hamas did not start out as you said.  They were certainly religious, but they were not dominated by the hard-core "Islamists" that eventually came to take control of the organization.  The Israelis believed they could work with this group, thus satisfying religious Palestinians, but obviously Hamas went in the other direction. 


We saw much the same thing happen here in the States, and that almost directly involved myself.  Back in the mid '60's, a new organization called Students for Democratic Society (SDS), which orignially was pretty much made up of pacifists (I wasn't, but I strongly opposed the Vietnam war) sprung up on campuses, and I was going to join it but my father wisely said I shouldn't.  Later, a radical element called "The Weatherman" took control of the organization and caused a lot of trouble.


The Israeli support for Hamas ended quite a while back, and like SDS, it was more the radical element that eventually took charge.  Obviously, there's no way of telling which way any organization might drift, and Monday-morning quarterbacking is all too easy.


Finally, the Hamas situation is not at all a "red herring" since Abbas has repeatedly stated that the GS, which is obviously controlled by Hamas, must also be part of any agreement.


 


Not because of you, but I'm leaving at this point because I'm shutting down and moving to our place up north.  I hope you and all here have a nice summer as I'll only very rarely be visiting this forum until after mid-September. 


Shalom

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 01, 2012 - 3:21PM #38
rocketjsquirell
Posts: 16,223

More from those friends in Egypt, those peaceful souls, the Muslim brotherhood

'Israel’s creation worst catastrophe to hit world'
By OREN KESSLER
06/01/2012 00:28
Head of Egypt's Muslim Brotherhood Badie reminds followers of movement’s “sacrifices” in efforts to destroy the Jewish state.

full article:
www.jpost.com/MiddleEast/Article.aspx?id...

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2 years ago  ::  Jun 01, 2012 - 4:12PM #39
Miraj
Posts: 5,021

Enjoy your summer, vra!  No worries!

Disclaimer: The opinions of this member are not primarily informed by western ethnocentric paradigms, stereotypes rooted in anti-Muslim/Islam hysteria, "Israel can do no wrong" intransigence, or the perceived need to protect the Judeo-Christian world from invading foreign religions and legal concepts.  By expressing such views, no inherent attempt is being made to derail or hijack threads, but that may be the result.  The result is not the responsibility of this member.


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2 years ago  ::  Jun 02, 2012 - 1:37PM #40
KindredSai
Posts: 5,756

Jun 1, 2012 -- 11:59AM, vra wrote:


Hamas did not start out as you said.  They were certainly religious, but they were not dominated by the hard-core "Islamists" that eventually came to take control of the organization.  The Israelis believed they could work with this group, thus satisfying religious Palestinians, but obviously Hamas went in the other direction.


This is untrue - you need to read the Devil's Game by Robert Dreyfuss.


If you are referring to the Muslim Brotherhood Organization, in the early beginnings then yes they were religious but they too were fundamentalist and banned by Egypt. Hamas has always had a violent charter too. 


The PLO was always viewed as the major threat to Israel, because they were the more educated and secular Palestinians. They had fought a very effective campaign against Israel, whereas Hamas has had very limited success. The book by Dreyfuss predicts the current Palestianian crisis where (PLO) Fatah and Hamas militias battled each other in the streets of Gaza and in other parts of Palestine for dominance over the Palestinian people. Dreyfuss claims that the political and economic isolation of Hamas is currently suffocating the new government. Gaza is running out of gas and public workers have not been paid for many months. This has been a strategic victory for Israel in a classic example of divide and conquer.


Israel today continues to fund and support extremists groups in Africa and South America.

Moderated by Merope on Jun 02, 2012 - 02:57PM
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