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Switch to Forum Live View How the right helped launch same-sex marriage movement
3 years ago  ::  May 14, 2012 - 6:16PM #1
Druac
Posts: 12,255
I found this article very interesting:


How the right helped launch same-sex marriage movement




It happened like this: In 1993, in the case of Baehr v. Lewin, the Hawaii Supreme Court decided that the state's prohibition on same-sex marriage was discriminatory. In 1998, Hawaii's voters passed a referendum giving the legislature the right to declare same-sex marriage illegal, but in the meantime, social conservatives had taken the issue to the national stage, where it promised to pay handsome dividends. Same-sex marriage was still so unpopular that in 1996, tremulous Democrats joined Republicans in overwhelmingly passing the Defense of Marriage Act, or DOMA, signed by President Bill Clinton.


That act defined marriage at the federal level to mean only heterosexual marriage and authorized states to deny recognition to same-sex marriages performed in other states -- even though, at the time, no state had authorized the practice. DOMA was thus a preemptive strike by the opponents of marriage equality.


But the act helped to call into being the very marriage equality movement it aimed to combat. Encouraged by their surprising, if temporary, success in Hawaii, and outraged by the blatantly homophobic arguments that had been made in favor of DOMA, the lesbian/gay/bisexual/transgender movement reluctantly began to turn its energy and resources toward the goal of marriage equality.


This was a fundamental shift, not made without controversy within the movement, where many worried that calling for marriage equality would unleash the fury of the Christian Right. Whereas many activists had given higher priority to such issues as employment discrimination, HIV/AIDS education and protection against hate crimes, the denial of marriage equality now came to be seen as a broad symbol of second-class citizenship for LGBT Americans.


Obama's declaration of his support for marriage equality the day after North Carolina residents banned both same-sex marriage and civil unions in a referendum is only the latest encapsulation of the dialectical interaction of movement and countermovement: Each effort to limit marriage equality has led to a countereffort on behalf of equal rights. As the first African-American president, Obama could not be seen to stand on the wrong side of the most prominent civil rights struggle of our time.




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3 years ago  ::  May 14, 2012 - 6:47PM #2
Fodaoson
Posts: 11,166

The religious right and the Catholic Church are pushing to make Marriage a religious Freedom issue.  The States will be forced to  move marriage into the Licensing/ witnessing  arena and  recognize  secular  marriage only.  Since divorce(dissolution of marriage) is already a state issue  the formation of a  civil union will become a state function .  At one time a baptism certificate  was accepted as proof of birth date, now only state issued birth certificate are acceptable. Marriage licenses will have to be signed by a state official or notary public. The Church wedding will become a Religious ritual not a legal one.  

“I seldom make the mistake of arguing with people for whose opinions I have no respect.” Edward Gibbon
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3 years ago  ::  May 14, 2012 - 7:37PM #3
Druac
Posts: 12,255

May 14, 2012 -- 6:47PM, Fodaoson wrote:


The religious right and the Catholic Church are pushing to make Marriage a religious Freedom issue.  The States will be forced to  move marriage into the Licensing/ witnessing  arena and  recognize  secular  marriage only.  Since divorce(dissolution of marriage) is already a state issue  the formation of a  civil union will become a state function .  At one time a baptism certificate  was accepted as proof of birth date, now only state issued birth certificate are acceptable. Marriage licenses will have to be signed by a state official or notary public. The Church wedding will become a Religious ritual not a legal one.  




Yep...or they could stop holding their breath like a 8 year old girl who isn't getting her way and just give it to them.

Jesus Is My Savior...He Saves Me From REALITY!
---------------------------------------------
We created god in our own image and likeness!
[George Carlin]
---------------------------------------------
"Reason & Logic" - A Damn Good Slogan!
---------------------------------------------
"Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion." - Steven Weinberg, an American physicist
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3 years ago  ::  May 14, 2012 - 10:05PM #4
Bodean
Posts: 9,836

May 14, 2012 -- 7:37PM, Druac wrote:


May 14, 2012 -- 6:47PM, Fodaoson wrote:


The religious right and the Catholic Church are pushing to make Marriage a religious Freedom issue.  The States will be forced to  move marriage into the Licensing/ witnessing  arena and  recognize  secular  marriage only.  Since divorce(dissolution of marriage) is already a state issue  the formation of a  civil union will become a state function .  At one time a baptism certificate  was accepted as proof of birth date, now only state issued birth certificate are acceptable. Marriage licenses will have to be signed by a state official or notary public. The Church wedding will become a Religious ritual not a legal one.  




Yep...or they could stop holding their breath like a 8 year old girl who isn't getting her way and just give it to them.





Or not.

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3 years ago  ::  May 14, 2012 - 10:25PM #5
christzen
Posts: 6,874

May 14, 2012 -- 10:05PM, Bodean wrote:


May 14, 2012 -- 7:37PM, Druac wrote:


May 14, 2012 -- 6:47PM, Fodaoson wrote:


The religious right and the Catholic Church are pushing to make Marriage a religious Freedom issue.  The States will be forced to  move marriage into the Licensing/ witnessing  arena and  recognize  secular  marriage only.  Since divorce(dissolution of marriage) is already a state issue  the formation of a  civil union will become a state function .  At one time a baptism certificate  was accepted as proof of birth date, now only state issued birth certificate are acceptable. Marriage licenses will have to be signed by a state official or notary public. The Church wedding will become a Religious ritual not a legal one.  




Yep...or they could stop holding their breath like a 8 year old girl who isn't getting her way and just give it to them.





Or not.




 


The discussions here seemed to have moved you away from a Libertarian view of gays and firmly into the social conservative camp.

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3 years ago  ::  May 15, 2012 - 1:11PM #6
Find1Answer
Posts: 7,385

is it possible to be a full fledged libertarian AND a social conservative?   or are some confused about which way their ideology flows?  taking a bite out of the middle and calling it justified?

One of the nation’s largest refuse streams at 136 million tons a year, coal ash has fouled water supplies, endangered public health and threatened communities across the country. The EPA itself has recognized as many as 160 “damage” cases in which coal ash from ponds, landfills and other dumpsites have contaminated nearby aquifers, streams, rivers and lakes or tainted the air.
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3 years ago  ::  May 15, 2012 - 2:43PM #7
Jasr
Posts: 12,234

May 14, 2012 -- 6:47PM, Fodaoson wrote:


The religious right and the Catholic Church are pushing to make Marriage a religious Freedom issue.  The States will be forced to  move marriage into the Licensing/ witnessing  arena and  recognize  secular  marriage only.  Since divorce(dissolution of marriage) is already a state issue  the formation of a  civil union will become a state function .  At one time a baptism certificate  was accepted as proof of birth date, now only state issued birth certificate are acceptable. Marriage licenses will have to be signed by a state official or notary public. The Church wedding will become a Religious ritual not a legal one.  





I wish this were true, but I fear not.


If President Obama really wants to build on his new position of tolerance, he should now propose a civil union legal instrument, standardized to certain minimum legal protections, with all federal survivor benefits guaranteed, declare the Federal government to be officially out of the marriage definition business, and challenge all states to employ the template, and leave marriage to religious institutions.


Rights and responsibilities codified and extended to all couples, and no government involvement where it is not warranted.


That would be a truly libertarian position.

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3 years ago  ::  May 18, 2012 - 2:44PM #8
Do_unto_others
Posts: 9,333

May 14, 2012 -- 6:47PM, Fodaoson wrote:


The religious right and the Catholic Church are pushing to make Marriage a religious Freedom issue.  The States will be forced to  move marriage into the Licensing/ witnessing  arena and  recognize  secular  marriage only.  Since divorce(dissolution of marriage) is already a state issue  the formation of a  civil union will become a state function .  At one time a baptism certificate  was accepted as proof of birth date, now only state issued birth certificate are acceptable. Marriage licenses will have to be signed by a state official or notary public. The Church wedding will become a Religious ritual not a legal one.  





NO "church wedding" by itself IS a "legal" one. First, the couple must get a State-issued license. Then all the participants must sign the State-issued registration documents. Then, the officiant must say the words, "And now, by the authority vested in me by the STATE ...". Without these State-controlled pieces in place, "Church weddings" are nothing more than the performance of a religious ritual and are not legal marriages at all.


Re: relgious freedoms, how come gay citizens are deprived of theirs? That instance in New York where a town clerk refused to even issue a license to a lesbian couple "because of her religious beliefs" completely ignores any religious beliefs that the couple may have had. The clerk, therefore, infringed on other people's religious freedoms, when she failed to do her SECULAR job.


And, once again, you have used confusing terminology. You said, "the formation of a  civil union will become a state function". As stated above, it already IS just (and ONLY) that, except it's called civil marriage, not "civil" union.


"Marriage licenses will have to be signed by a state official or notary public."


"will" is simply writing in the wrong tense. They already ARE.

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3 years ago  ::  May 18, 2012 - 2:50PM #9
Do_unto_others
Posts: 9,333

May 15, 2012 -- 2:43PM, Jasr wrote:


If President Obama really wants to build on his new position of tolerance, he should now propose a civil union legal instrument, standardized to certain minimum legal protections, with all federal survivor benefits guaranteed, declare the Federal government to be officially out of the marriage definition business, and challenge all states to employ the template, and leave marriage to religious institutions.


Rights and responsibilities codified and extended to all couples, and no government involvement where it is not warranted.


That would be a truly libertarian position.





Such a "legal instrument" already exists. It's called civil marriage. No need for any new institutions to be invented to placate the religious wrong.


As for "the Federal government to be officially out of the marriage definition business", that ain't EVER gonna happen. Like it or not, the government governs. It enacts and enforces/regulates laws that govern "the effects that flow from marriage". From spousal immigration sponsorship laws, to end-of-life decision making, to health-care coverage, to income taxes, to pensions, to inheritances, to alimony, to child-custody, to ... well ... there are some 1,176 such Federal "effects that flow from marriage", and it is the very job of government to regulate them and bestow those effects EQUALLY on ALL citizens.


And, as for, "leave marriage to religious institutions", it doesn't belong (solely) to them to begin with. We DO let atheists marry (so long as they're heterosexuals), so this is simply not a viable option. Now, if you had said, 'Leave the religious Rite of Holy Matrimony to religious institutions', I would have no quibble, since the Government allows freedom of religion ot all, and MY church is just fine with same-gender marriage, as are an ever-increasing number of other faiths.


Sorry, but you really have to do much, much better.

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3 years ago  ::  May 18, 2012 - 3:59PM #10
Druac
Posts: 12,255

May 18, 2012 -- 2:50PM, Do_unto_others wrote:


May 15, 2012 -- 2:43PM, Jasr wrote:


If President Obama really wants to build on his new position of tolerance, he should now propose a civil union legal instrument, standardized to certain minimum legal protections, with all federal survivor benefits guaranteed, declare the Federal government to be officially out of the marriage definition business, and challenge all states to employ the template, and leave marriage to religious institutions.


Rights and responsibilities codified and extended to all couples, and no government involvement where it is not warranted.


That would be a truly libertarian position.





Such a "legal instrument" already exists. It's called civil marriage. No need for any new institutions to be invented to placate the religious wrong.


As for "the Federal government to be officially out of the marriage definition business", that ain't EVER gonna happen. Like it or not, the government governs. It enacts and enforces/regulates laws that govern "the effects that flow from marriage". From spousal immigration sponsorship laws, to end-of-life decision making, to health-care coverage, to income taxes, to pensions, to inheritances, to alimony, to child-custody, to ... well ... there are some 1,176 such Federal "effects that flow from marriage", and it is the very job of government to regulate them and bestow those effects EQUALLY on ALL citizens.


And, as for, "leave marriage to religious institutions", it doesn't belong (solely) to them to begin with. We DO let atheists marry (so long as they're heterosexuals), so this is simply not a viable option. Now, if you had said, 'Leave the religious Rite of Holy Matrimony to religious institutions', I would have no quibble, since the Government allows freedom of religion ot all, and MY church is just fine with same-gender marriage, as are an ever-increasing number of other faiths.


Sorry, but you really have to do much, much better.




+1

Jesus Is My Savior...He Saves Me From REALITY!
---------------------------------------------
We created god in our own image and likeness!
[George Carlin]
---------------------------------------------
"Reason & Logic" - A Damn Good Slogan!
---------------------------------------------
"Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion." - Steven Weinberg, an American physicist
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