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Switch to Forum Live View The Nakba is Ongoing For Palestinians Today
3 years ago  ::  May 16, 2012 - 11:26AM #21
Miraj
Posts: 5,021

The problem with your reasoning is that the Arabs didn't start the war.  Any time a population of outsiders comes in to take what is yours, they're the instigators, not you.  The involvement of colonial Europeans who were trying desparately to eliminate Jews by carving up the Middle East to accomodate their racist intent didn't contribute favorably to the situation.


Ultimately, Jews will be the losers in this.  They are outnumbered in the region, and, from what we read here, still unloved in much of the world.  Like Rocky likes to say, when at least 3 people tell you you're drunk, lie down.  Personally, I don't have a thing against Jews, but, whether or not it's right, the fact is the world has been telling Jews they're drunk for centuries.  There is a basis in reality to wonder what it is about them that so many find so annoying that they were exiled from Europe and given a nation of their own that remains under seige.


I expect those who demand that others take responsibility for their circumstances to do the same.  If Israel ever wants to be safe, it has to accept that it has a responsibility for what's happening to it too.  Denying its own history, born in violence of its own making, is not the best way to make that happen.


May 16, 2012 -- 3:01AM, rangerken wrote:


I see this as nothing more than the losers in a war they started, meaning the Arabs living in and around, and next to what became Israel in 1947, trying to claim that the results of their actions, their attacks, their decisions, and their attmpts to destroy Israel, are somehow the responsibility of anyone except themselves.


The nakba is entirely, solely, 100% the responsibility of the Arabs who would not and will not accept Israel starting in 1947. They chose war. They lost. I have zero sympathy for them and I hope my country continues to support Israel as a friend and ally.


I also hope to see a viable, properous Palestinian state some day...alongside Israel but not replacing Israel. What has been and continues to be a real shame is that the Palestinians could have and should have long since had their state except for their own stupidity and desire for Israel's desruction. I have written before on this forum and on the old, Israel vs. Palestine forum that I completely agree with the statement that the Palestinians never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity. The simple fact that Palestinians permit an organization like Hamas to exist within their lands is proof that this statement is still accurate.


Ken





Disclaimer: The opinions of this member are not primarily informed by western ethnocentric paradigms, stereotypes rooted in anti-Muslim/Islam hysteria, "Israel can do no wrong" intransigence, or the perceived need to protect the Judeo-Christian world from invading foreign religions and legal concepts.  By expressing such views, no inherent attempt is being made to derail or hijack threads, but that may be the result.  The result is not the responsibility of this member.


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3 years ago  ::  May 16, 2012 - 12:14PM #22
browbeaten
Posts: 3,232

May 16, 2012 -- 11:26AM, Miraj wrote:


The problem with your reasoning is that the Arabs didn't start the war.  Any time a population of outsiders comes in to take what is yours, they're the instigators, not you.  The involvement of colonial Europeans who were trying desparately to eliminate Jews by carving up the Middle East to accomodate their racist intent didn't contribute favorably to the situation.


Ultimately, Jews will be the losers in this.  They are outnumbered in the region, and, from what we read here, still unloved in much of the world.  Like Rocky likes to say, when at least 3 people tell you you're drunk, lie down.  Personally, I don't have a thing against Jews, but, whether or not it's right, the fact is the world has been telling Jews they're drunk for centuries.  There is a basis in reality to wonder what it is about them that so many find so annoying that they were exiled from Europe and given a nation of their own that remains under seige.


I expect those who demand that others take responsibility for their circumstances to do the same.  If Israel ever wants to be safe, it has to accept that it has a responsibility for what's happening to it too.  Denying its own history, born in violence of its own making, is not the best way to make that happen.


May 16, 2012 -- 3:01AM, rangerken wrote:


I see this as nothing more than the losers in a war they started, meaning the Arabs living in and around, and next to what became Israel in 1947, trying to claim that the results of their actions, their attacks, their decisions, and their attmpts to destroy Israel, are somehow the responsibility of anyone except themselves.


The nakba is entirely, solely, 100% the responsibility of the Arabs who would not and will not accept Israel starting in 1947. They chose war. They lost. I have zero sympathy for them and I hope my country continues to support Israel as a friend and ally.


I also hope to see a viable, properous Palestinian state some day...alongside Israel but not replacing Israel. What has been and continues to be a real shame is that the Palestinians could have and should have long since had their state except for their own stupidity and desire for Israel's desruction. I have written before on this forum and on the old, Israel vs. Palestine forum that I completely agree with the statement that the Palestinians never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity. The simple fact that Palestinians permit an organization like Hamas to exist within their lands is proof that this statement is still accurate.


Ken








Classic blame the victim.  If everyone thinks your bad or is jealous of you, then there is obviously, something wrong with you.  It is the Jews fault for all the problems of the world.  You see, we get it.  You are just confirming what we already know and why Israel will ALWAYS represent the Jewish people.  And BTW, not all Jews were outsiders either.  Arabs migrated to the region and those "outsiders" represented much of the 800,000 that were displaced.  You can't rewrite the facts.


.

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3 years ago  ::  May 16, 2012 - 12:37PM #23
rocketjsquirell
Posts: 16,564

Brow


Re-writing the fact is exactly what the Arab have been doing since day one.


They can not accept the fact that there were Jews living in Israel before they got there.


They can not accept the fact that there were Jews living in Israel throughout the time they have been there.


They can not accept the fact that the Arab population of Israel (and or what they call Palestine) is comprised predominantly of people who arrived after the mid-19th century.


They can not accept the fact that Jews had the audacity to stand up for themselves (something Dhimmis are never supposed to do)


They can not accept the fact that they lost all of the wears they have waged against tiny little Israel.


They can not accept a Jewish state or Jews for that matter.


They can not accept the truth because the truth defies their world view.


Since they can not accept the truth, they change the facts.

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3 years ago  ::  May 16, 2012 - 6:24PM #24
rocketjsquirell
Posts: 16,564

There is so much more to learn about the "Nakba"  This will help you get started.


A PALESTINIAN MYTH - The so said NAKBA


According to Palestinians, they were expelled from Israel by the Jewish armies in 1948. A large documentation, and many testimonies from Arab leaders and historians intend to prove that, actually, they fled the zone of conflict because of Arab propaganda, spreading the fake news of massacres... Deir Yassin, among those so said massacres, became a legend. Such as Jenin, and Gaza will be decades later. Pallywood, pallywood...


www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_emb...

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3 years ago  ::  May 16, 2012 - 11:29PM #25
habesor
Posts: 5,766

Sherri, You wrote:


"And I am never going to stop calling the land Palestine, that is what it has been called by Christians since Jesus was born there. I don't deny Jesus and His legitimacy , and I don't deny Palestine and her legitimacy. Some things never change, there were Jews in Palestine then with power who  looked down on and treated  all nonJews as dogs, as only entitled to crumbs thrown under the table to them, and some of their desendants are in the same identical position today." 



Sherri, when Jesus was alive, what did he call the land in question? Certainly, Jesus and his early followers didn't call the land Palestine since it was a century after the death of Jesus that the Roman Hadrian renamed the area Palestine. So I find the above statement a bit odd especially from someone who claims to be a believer in the words of Jesus.


Sherri, it is a historical fact that Rome renamed the territory Palestine as an anti-Jewish and probably anti-Christian act. The following is a comment made by a Christian pro-Israeli (I think) writer:


"The term Palestine, although rarely used in the Old Testament, refers specifically to the southwestern coastal area of Israel occupied by the Philistines.  As stated above, it is a translation of the Hebrew word "Pelesheth."  The term is never used to refer to the whole land occupied by Israel.  Before Israel occupied the land, it would be generally accurate to say that the southwestern coastal area (Gaza Strip vicinity) was called Philistia (the way of the Philistines, or Palestine), while the central highlands were called Canaan.  Both the Canaanites and the Philistines had disappeared as distinct peoples at least by the time of the Babylonian Captivity of Judea (586BC), and they no longer exist. In the New Testament, the term Palestine is never used.  The term Israel is primarily used to refer to the people of Israel, rather than the Land.  However, in at least two passages, Israel is used to refer to the Land:



"
Saying, Arise, and take this young child and his mother, and go into the land of Israel:  for they are dead who sought the young child's live. And he arose, and took the young child and his mother, and came into the land of Israel" (Mathew. 2:20-21).



"But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another:  for verily I say to you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man shall have come" (Matthew 10:23)



   
The first passage is when Joseph, Mary and Jesus returned from Egypt to Israel, and the second has reference to the proclamation of the Gospel throughout the Land of Israel.  Jesus, Matthew and the angel speaking to Joseph use the term Israel with reference to the Land, even though the term was not then recognized by the Roman authorities.

   It is clear, then, that the Bible never uses the term Palestine to refer to the Holy Land as a whole, and Bible maps that refer to Palestine in the Old or New Testament are, at best, inaccurate, and, at worst, are a conscious denial of the Biblical name of Israel."


 Habesor


Habesor
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3 years ago  ::  May 16, 2012 - 11:31PM #26
habesor
Posts: 5,766

The source for the quote in the previous message was:


focusonjerusalem.com/thebibleandpalestin...


Habesor

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3 years ago  ::  May 17, 2012 - 12:29AM #27
Dostojevsky
Posts: 7,718

On May 15, Haaretz called Nakba "part of Israel's history," saying:


Netanyahu doesn't understand that Israel's national anthem "addresses only one people, the Jewish one."


Few Israelis know or remember the Nakba catastrophe. For Palestinians, it reflects "the tragedy of hundreds of thousands of refugees and their millions of relatives, for whom May 15 - the day the establishment of the State of Israel was announced - symbolizes the day they lost their land, property and status."


Israelis never accepted responsibility for Palestinian suffering. "But washing our hands....should not mean revoking the right to remember it. Nor is it supposed to prevent us from empathizing with the suffering of the other nation living in Israel."


The effort put into "wiping out the Nakba's memory is astonishing and outrageous." It's suppressed in textbooks. Israel's Nakba Law bans commemorations.


Enacted as the Budget Foundations Law, Israel's finance minister may reduce or eliminate funding for any institution or entity engaging in activities contrary to Israel's definition as a "Jewish and democratic" state.


It also prohibits mourning Israel's Independence Day. In other words, Arab history, culture, and right to express, teach, or disseminate it freely is violated. Discrimination faces anyone not Jewish.


Palestinians won't forget. Neither should Jews. Something this important can't be swept aside or forgotten. Nor can those with painful memories be denied the right to remember and mourn.


Nakba remains embedded in Palestinian consciousness. Israeli laws and ruthlessness won't erase it.

Moderated by Beliefnet_community on May 17, 2012 - 02:03PM
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3 years ago  ::  May 17, 2012 - 1:47AM #28
SherriMunnerlyn
Posts: 7,519

May 16, 2012 -- 11:29PM, habesor wrote:


Sherri, You wrote:


"And I am never going to stop calling the land Palestine, that is what it has been called by Christians since Jesus was born there. I don't deny Jesus and His legitimacy , and I don't deny Palestine and her legitimacy. Some things never change, there were Jews in Palestine then with power who  looked down on and treated  all nonJews as dogs, as only entitled to crumbs thrown under the table to them, and some of their desendants are in the same identical position today." 



Sherri, when Jesus was alive, what did he call the land in question? Certainly, Jesus and his early followers didn't call the land Palestine since it was a century after the death of Jesus that the Roman Hadrian renamed the area Palestine. So I find the above statement a bit odd especially from someone who claims to be a believer in the words of Jesus.


Sherri, it is a historical fact that Rome renamed the territory Palestine as an anti-Jewish and probably anti-Christian act. The following is a comment made by a Christian pro-Israeli (I think) writer:


"The term Palestine, although rarely used in the Old Testament, refers specifically to the southwestern coastal area of Israel occupied by the Philistines.  As stated above, it is a translation of the Hebrew word "Pelesheth."  The term is never used to refer to the whole land occupied by Israel.  Before Israel occupied the land, it would be generally accurate to say that the southwestern coastal area (Gaza Strip vicinity) was called Philistia (the way of the Philistines, or Palestine), while the central highlands were called Canaan.  Both the Canaanites and the Philistines had disappeared as distinct peoples at least by the time of the Babylonian Captivity of Judea (586BC), and they no longer exist. In the New Testament, the term Palestine is never used.  The term Israel is primarily used to refer to the people of Israel, rather than the Land.  However, in at least two passages, Israel is used to refer to the Land:



"
Saying, Arise, and take this young child and his mother, and go into the land of Israel:  for they are dead who sought the young child's live. And he arose, and took the young child and his mother, and came into the land of Israel" (Mathew. 2:20-21).



"But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another:  for verily I say to you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man shall have come" (Matthew 10:23)



   
The first passage is when Joseph, Mary and Jesus returned from Egypt to Israel, and the second has reference to the proclamation of the Gospel throughout the Land of Israel.  Jesus, Matthew and the angel speaking to Joseph use the term Israel with reference to the Land, even though the term was not then recognized by the Roman authorities.

   It is clear, then, that the Bible never uses the term Palestine to refer to the Holy Land as a whole, and Bible maps that refer to Palestine in the Old or New Testament are, at best, inaccurate, and, at worst, are a conscious denial of the Biblical name of Israel."


 Habesor





Habesor,


The name Palestine goes back thousands of years before Jesus even lived in Palestine, the name coming from the name Philistine, and we have gone over this many times before. For example, Josephus called the land Palestine, as did others, such as Herodotus.


Jesus uses the name Israel, because he is referring to the Israelites, the people, and that is the context in which the name is used.


The land is Palestine, that will never change, no matter how long this 64 year present day rogue nation that calls itself Israel exists.


Speaking of the many Christian books, filled with maps labelling the  land as Palestine when Jesus lived there, I was in a second hand bookstore earlier this week and found this oversized book called Lands Of The Bible A Golden Book, that had once been a part of a First Methodist Church library. It was written by Samuel Terrien of Union Theological Seminary, copyright 1957. And I turn to page 60 and I read the chapter begin, "Like the Greeks, the new conquerors of Palestine were Europeans." And I turn to Page 62 and there is a map, labelled Palestine At Birth of Jesus."Now, when I look at the map, I see the places Jesus spoke of when He lived in Palestine, like Samaria, like Judea, like Galilee, but nowhere on that map does there appear a place labelled Israel.


 


Sherri

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3 years ago  ::  May 17, 2012 - 2:52AM #29
NahumS
Posts: 1,769

According to to the search that I made of the New Testament, (New American Version, English King James, American Standard Version) "Palestine" appears not once. "Judea" seems to be the standard term.


 See for yourselves:  unbound.biola.edu/


The Romans wished to destroy Jewish (Judean) nationalism by renaming the land for the Philistines, an invading nation. The trend continues.


 Josephus identified with the Roman conquerors and used their terminology. Use of "Palestine" to refer to the land as a whole is inexact - or prejudicial, execpt referring to Roman Palestine or British Mandatory Palestine.


Back at the ranch....


No one can deny the pain of displacement. But the fact is that the vast majority of Palestinian refugees lost their home in a genocidal war that the Arabs waged against the Jews of the Land of Israel. I am thankful that they lost. I will not apologize for surviving.


As has been said, the Naqba is a self-inflicted wound - and the Arabs still refuse to take responsibility for the failure in judgement that led them to militarily oppose the implementation of the UN decision to partition Palestine in 1947. It is rather ingenuous (although true to form) to try to achieve the same end today by calling for its implementation.


They will never regain their former homes. In most cases, these homes do not exist. Those that do have other residents. The best that can be hoped for is compensation, in the context of settling claims as part of a peace treaty.


Maintaining their refugee status, brandishing rusty keys and observing the Naqba only serve to extend their misery. There are no other refugees from the 40's or 50's in the world - all have settled down in the countries where they live, become rehabilitated and made new homes and lives for themselves.


It's time to show some compassion for the1948 refugees by rehabilitating them in the lands where they now live (including Israel!), disbanding the refugee camps and closing down UNWRA. Use the fnds to provide them with a future.


It is precisely the Naqba narrative and mentality that prevent a settlement of the conflict.

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3 years ago  ::  May 17, 2012 - 8:03AM #30
Dostojevsky
Posts: 7,718

"According to to the search that I made of the New Testament, (New American Version, English King James, American Standard Version) "Palestine" appears not once. "Judea" seems to be the standard term"


Nahum, I got lost on that link. Wanted to see the year of publication.


For any historical validity I'd go to older translations or other old texts of Greeks and Romans. Also, times have changed. People's borders were that tree and that creek.


When was the first world map drawn, anybody knows?

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