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Switch to Forum Live View Israel - The Jewish State (HD)
2 years ago  ::  May 06, 2012 - 5:06PM #1
rocketjsquirell
Posts: 14,474
An excellent informational video

Israel - The Jewish State (HD)

www.youtube.com/watch?v=xVrNRfJdNI8&feat...

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2 years ago  ::  May 06, 2012 - 5:26PM #2
Miraj
Posts: 5,023

Wow!  What a bunch of malarkey! 

Disclaimer: The opinions of this member are not primarily informed by western ethnocentric paradigms, stereotypes rooted in anti-Muslim/Islam hysteria, "Israel can do no wrong" intransigence, or the perceived need to protect the Judeo-Christian world from invading foreign religions and legal concepts.  By expressing such views, no inherent attempt is being made to derail or hijack threads, but that may be the result.  The result is not the responsibility of this member.


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2 years ago  ::  May 06, 2012 - 5:33PM #3
rocketjsquirell
Posts: 14,474

With which statement(s) in the video  do you disagree? We could discuss the point(s) in greater detail if you wish. After all this is a discussion board. 

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2 years ago  ::  May 06, 2012 - 6:49PM #4
Miraj
Posts: 5,023

Problem number 1: The claim that only the Jewish nation state can't be democratic is racist because other nation states (French, Japanese, Arab, etc.) can be democratic.


Answer:  As a citizen of Israel, I'm Israeli but I'm not Jewish.  A citizen of a state that prefers an ethnic group and/or religion is inherently missing an element of democracy and religious freedom - the opportunity to be a full member without having to be of a particular ethnic or faith group.  I don't need to be a Catholic to be French, or Shinto to be Japanese.


A state that requires a demographic majority of a faith or ethnic group justifies what it must do to keep that majority.  No other nation demands and receives foreign support for prejudice against people who are not part of that majority, especially in light of what must be done to keep the indigeonous population oppressed and at bay to maintain the favored majority while establishing a "right of return" for non-indigenous populations.


The construct of a majority Jewish state is as racist as a preference for a majority White state or a majority Muslims state or a majority Black state, etc.  None of those lack controversy in a multicultural world.  Nations based on a preference for a race, ethnicity, religion are anachronisms that aren't justified in the 21st century.  

Disclaimer: The opinions of this member are not primarily informed by western ethnocentric paradigms, stereotypes rooted in anti-Muslim/Islam hysteria, "Israel can do no wrong" intransigence, or the perceived need to protect the Judeo-Christian world from invading foreign religions and legal concepts.  By expressing such views, no inherent attempt is being made to derail or hijack threads, but that may be the result.  The result is not the responsibility of this member.


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2 years ago  ::  May 06, 2012 - 10:12PM #5
rangerken
Posts: 15,816

Then Saudi Arabia is not justified as a nation. Then Japan is not nor is China. Not all countries are heterogenous, nor do all wish to be.


Israel is justified being what Israelis want it to be.


And I think the video is excellent and presents Israel the way Isaelis want it presented. It's not my country and I have no wish to live there...but then I'm an American. I leave Israel to the Israelis for 'justification'.


Ken

Libertarian, Conservative, Life member of the NRA and VFW
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2 years ago  ::  May 06, 2012 - 10:20PM #6
Miraj
Posts: 5,023

There are lots of Israelis, and not all of them agree that a nation created due to the preference, racism and prejudice of others should be a nation built on religious preference, racism and prejudice.  I'm proud to be one of these Israelis against prejudice.

Disclaimer: The opinions of this member are not primarily informed by western ethnocentric paradigms, stereotypes rooted in anti-Muslim/Islam hysteria, "Israel can do no wrong" intransigence, or the perceived need to protect the Judeo-Christian world from invading foreign religions and legal concepts.  By expressing such views, no inherent attempt is being made to derail or hijack threads, but that may be the result.  The result is not the responsibility of this member.


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2 years ago  ::  May 07, 2012 - 12:59AM #7
habesor
Posts: 5,429

Miraj,


This may sound strange to you but just as their are Muslims who do not agree with the definition or description of Islam by non-Muslims, Arab bashers or even some other Muslims, some of us Jews do not agree that you are the final authority to judge what Judaism is. In addition we Jews have been arguing about our own self-identity for the past couple of thousand years and though there is more than a little disagreement, we don't consider ourselves a race. That you and a good many Arab propagandists do consider Jews a race may be an indication of ignorance, racism or most probably poor salemanship through false advertising.


Habesor

Habesor
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2 years ago  ::  May 07, 2012 - 2:11AM #8
Miraj
Posts: 5,023

The video in question calls the claim that a Jewish state can't be democratic "racist".  It seems that the folks who made the video consider Jews to be a race.  I was commenting on their points, as they stated them.  That doesn't mean I personally consider Jews to be a race, but then, I'm a great deal smarter than the folks who produced the video.


I'm sure I said nothing to infer that I'm an authority on Judaism, so I'm not sure why you'd accuse me of that.  I'm also sure I'm not an "Arab propagandist".


May 7, 2012 -- 12:59AM, habesor wrote:


Miraj,


This may sound strange to you but just as their are Muslims who do not agree with the definition or description of Islam by non-Muslims, Arab bashers or even some other Muslims, some of us Jews do not agree that you are the final authority to judge what Judaism is. In addition we Jews have been arguing about our own self-identity for the past couple of thousand years and though there is more than a little disagreement, we don't consider ourselves a race. That you and a good many Arab propagandists do consider Jews a race may be an indication of ignorance, racism or most probably poor salemanship through false advertising.


Habesor





Disclaimer: The opinions of this member are not primarily informed by western ethnocentric paradigms, stereotypes rooted in anti-Muslim/Islam hysteria, "Israel can do no wrong" intransigence, or the perceived need to protect the Judeo-Christian world from invading foreign religions and legal concepts.  By expressing such views, no inherent attempt is being made to derail or hijack threads, but that may be the result.  The result is not the responsibility of this member.


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2 years ago  ::  May 07, 2012 - 2:40AM #9
NahumS
Posts: 1,638

Miraj - what discrimination do you face as a Muslim Israeli citizen?


Are you unequal before a court of law? Do you receive lesser National Insurance (Bituah leumi) payments?


Can you not vote for the party of your choice in Knesset? Are you barred from public office?


Can you not worship as you wish? Are Muslim clergy not paid by the gov't? Are mosques not subsidized?


Are you denied medical services? Education? A driver's license?


Are you forbidden to speak Arabic or wear traditional Muslim dress if you chose?


What disadvantages do you face that I wouldn't face if I, an Israeli Jew, were to attain Finnish citizenship and live in Finland? Or Belgium, a country with a larger Jewish population?


I think that the major problem is that Arabs resent the very existence of a Jewish nation-state, and some Israeli Arabs resent being a minority, even though they have equal rights. They resent the fact that Israel's symbols are specifically Jewish and that Israel has a responsibility towards Diaspora Jews and receives their support.


I would not say that there is no discrimination or unequal treatment. That is nearly inevitable when there is a minority - and especially when that minority shows signs of hostility or even treason towards the state.


The latter is easily remedied by Israeli Arabs. One way would be to do National Service (non-military) or serve in the IDF as Bedouins and Druze citizens do. Another is to appeal to the courts when discrimination occurs. Most Israelis want loyal Arab citizens to be treated fairly - just as we would want Jews who live as a minority in other democratic countries to be treated. 


 


 

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2 years ago  ::  May 07, 2012 - 4:36AM #10
Miraj
Posts: 5,023

NahumS, if Arab Israelis had equal rights to Jews, and equal access and success with social and political institutions, Jews wouldn't be concerned about our numbers overtaking theirs because our equality would work in favor of us all.  However, most Israelis realize that we don't have equal rights, even if they don't ever voice it; that's why they question our loyalty and worry that one day we'll find our John Brown in Israel.


Disclaimer: The opinions of this member are not primarily informed by western ethnocentric paradigms, stereotypes rooted in anti-Muslim/Islam hysteria, "Israel can do no wrong" intransigence, or the perceived need to protect the Judeo-Christian world from invading foreign religions and legal concepts.  By expressing such views, no inherent attempt is being made to derail or hijack threads, but that may be the result.  The result is not the responsibility of this member.


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