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Switch to Forum Live View Taliban Kill 7 in Afghan Capital after Obama Leaves
2 years ago  ::  May 02, 2012 - 11:38PM #31
rabello
Posts: 20,760

May 2, 2012 -- 5:35PM, teilhard wrote:


Uh huh ...


The Taliban had NO Idea who Osama bin Laden was and what al Qaida was doing ...


Uh huh ...




I have no idea why you would make such juvenile statements....that isn't what I said -- anything close to what I said, so what are you talking about?



May 2, 2012 -- 6:05PM, ted08721 wrote:



His speech the other night made me want to vomit.




Me too.


Thanks for the link:

davidswanson.org/node/3672?utm_source=tw...

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2 years ago  ::  May 02, 2012 - 11:55PM #32
teilhard
Posts: 50,672

The Taliban Host-Sponsors of Osama bin Laden and al Qaida  already knew very well what those Guys were about ...


Hello ... ???


May 2, 2012 -- 11:38PM, rabello wrote:


May 2, 2012 -- 5:35PM, teilhard wrote:


Uh huh ...


The Taliban had NO Idea who Osama bin Laden was and what al Qaida was doing ...


Uh huh ...




I have no idea why you would make such juvenile statements....that isn't what I said -- anything close to what I said, so what are you talking about?



May 2, 2012 -- 6:05PM, ted08721 wrote:



His speech the other night made me want to vomit.




Me too.


Thanks for the link:

davidswanson.org/node/3672?utm_source=tw...





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2 years ago  ::  May 03, 2012 - 12:10AM #33
rabello
Posts: 20,760

Did you read the article "We Did Not Choose This War and other Hypocrisies" yet, written by a vet?

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2 years ago  ::  May 03, 2012 - 1:36AM #34
Mlyons619
Posts: 16,570

And...?


(Certain vets have written against even "just wars" such as WWII)

"No freedom without education"
            --Thomas Jefferson

"NOBODY expects the Spanish Inquisition"
            -- Monty Python
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2 years ago  ::  May 03, 2012 - 9:55AM #35
Nepenthe
Posts: 2,675

May 2, 2012 -- 5:35PM, teilhard wrote:


Uh huh ...


The Taliban had NO Idea who Osama bin Laden was and what al Qaida was doing ...


Uh huh ...



What the Taliban did or did not know was not the point brought up.  Physical evidence directly linking Osama to a terrorist attack in a materialistic manner was what was requested.  I say materialistic because vocal support of terrorist activitity is not illegal.  So, all we had to do was provide physical evidence that Osama was physically involved in any of the terrorist attacks associated with him.  That should not have been so hard for a nation that believes in the concept of Justice, should it?

Greater love has no one than this, than to lay down one's life for his friends.
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2 years ago  ::  May 03, 2012 - 10:20AM #36
Fodaoson
Posts: 11,147

May 3, 2012 -- 12:10AM, rabello wrote:


Did you read the article "We Did Not Choose This War and other Hypocrisies" yet, written by a vet?





Being a Veteran does not do away with one’s political opinion, or the  right  to express that opinion.   Being a veteran of Vietnam and Desert Strom did not teach me about foreign policy or strategic planning.   It did teach me how to vector an airplane to the correct  location and flight direction to drop ordinance in  close air support  of ground troops engaged   in combat Desert Storm  taught me  what soldiers feel after combat  and what is like to tell a family  there son, husband , is dead.


As Tennyson wrote”  theirs not to make reply ,theirs  not to reason why”[ that is the Presidents and  multi-star  Generals/admirals job]  “theirs  but to do and die”[ soldiers and veterans  job”


 


 


Forward, the Light Brigade!'
Was there a man dismay'd?
Not tho' the soldiers knew
  Some one had blunder'd:
Theirs not to make reply,
Theirs not to reason why,
Theirs but to do and die:
Into the valley of Death
  Rode the six hundred.

“I seldom make the mistake of arguing with people for whose opinions I have no respect.” Edward Gibbon
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2 years ago  ::  May 03, 2012 - 11:13AM #37
Jasr
Posts: 11,243

May 2, 2012 -- 5:12PM, rabello wrote:


May 2, 2012 -- 3:28PM, teilhard wrote:


Yes and No ...


Just yesterday, Federal Authorities arrested five Guys who were planning to blow-up a Bridge in a major American City ... In Fact, they actively TRIED to do so -- WHILE there were innocent Persons/Families crossing the Bridge ...


THAT is something a "Normal" Country does ...


After the 9-11-2001 Attack, IF Afghanistan HAD been a "Normal" Country the Authorities there WOULD have sought out and arrested Osama bin Laden and turned him over for Trial ... Instead, they treated the whole Matter as a Joke ... thus sealing THEIR Fate ...




False analogy.  The "authorities" in Afghanistan were the Taliban, the group we wanted to overthrow (how's that workin' for ya hawks???) and that is because the Taliban took control of the country through civil war, partly with the help we gave them.  The Bush administration even gave them aid in spite of the known human rights abuses they were guilty of.    Their "fate was sealed" the day Bush decided to use preemptive "war" as a way to seek vengeance.   You actually believe he wouldn't have done what he did had he personally been able to escort bin Laden to his Gitmo? 





It is a little more complicated than that, I fear.


The Taliban were mostly young Pashtun madrassah students who grew up in refugee camps in Pakistan (I believe "talib" actually means "student.") Most were too young to take part in the mujahedeen uprising against the Soviets, and when that was over and the diverse guerrilla groups fell to fighting amongst themselves the Taliban, who were well organized, ideologically pure, Sunni, and ethnically homogeneous, were able to fill the power vacuum and restore order in singularly brutal fashion.


Since the US and the west had lost interest in Afghanistan they had no material resources and were very much in need of funding, so the alliance with the wealthy Arab foreigners was a no-brainer. And in return they extended hospitality to the al Qaeda leadership in accordance with Pashtun traditions that were thousands of years old.


There was no way to dislodge al Qaeda without also dislodging the Taliban. And the Afghan people were certainly not going to be worse off for it, for a more brutal, misogynistic, and genocidal regime than the Taliban would be difficult to imagine.


It is possible the subsequent nation-building effort was doomed to failure anyway, but it might have had a fighting chance if the West's attention and resources had not been diverted to the neocon's other project in Iraq.

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2 years ago  ::  May 03, 2012 - 11:26AM #38
catboxer
Posts: 14,012

Professor Juan Cole owns this topic.


The war is a lie, and everybody knows it.

Adepto vestri stercore simul.ttr
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2 years ago  ::  May 03, 2012 - 11:32AM #39
teilhard
Posts: 50,672

I fully agree ... 


The Complications, Expenses and Distractions of The Iraq War GREATLY added to the already huge Distress and Mess of Afghanistan ...


At the same Time ... I ALSO agree that The Nations of The World OUGHT to have taken greater Responsibility for The Iraq Problem -- but didn't ...


May 3, 2012 -- 11:13AM, Jasr wrote:


May 2, 2012 -- 5:12PM, rabello wrote:


May 2, 2012 -- 3:28PM, teilhard wrote:


Yes and No ...


Just yesterday, Federal Authorities arrested five Guys who were planning to blow-up a Bridge in a major American City ... In Fact, they actively TRIED to do so -- WHILE there were innocent Persons/Families crossing the Bridge ...


THAT is something a "Normal" Country does ...


After the 9-11-2001 Attack, IF Afghanistan HAD been a "Normal" Country the Authorities there WOULD have sought out and arrested Osama bin Laden and turned him over for Trial ... Instead, they treated the whole Matter as a Joke ... thus sealing THEIR Fate ...




False analogy.  The "authorities" in Afghanistan were the Taliban, the group we wanted to overthrow (how's that workin' for ya hawks???) and that is because the Taliban took control of the country through civil war, partly with the help we gave them.  The Bush administration even gave them aid in spite of the known human rights abuses they were guilty of.    Their "fate was sealed" the day Bush decided to use preemptive "war" as a way to seek vengeance.   You actually believe he wouldn't have done what he did had he personally been able to escort bin Laden to his Gitmo? 





It is a little more complicated than that, I fear.


The Taliban were mostly young Pashtun madrassah students who grew up in refugee camps in Pakistan (I believe "talib" actually means "student.") Most were too young to take part in the mujahedeen uprising against the Soviets, and when that was over and the diverse guerrilla groups fell to fighting amongst themselves the Taliban, who were well organized, ideologically pure, Sunni, and ethnically homogeneous, were able to fill the power vacuum and restore order in singularly brutal fashion.


Since the US and the west had lost interest in Afghanistan they had no material resources and were very much in need of funding, so the alliance with the wealthy Arab foreigners was a no-brainer. And in return they extended hospitality to the al Qaeda leadership in accordance with Pashtun traditions that were thousands of years old.


There was no way to dislodge al Qaeda without also dislodging the Taliban. And the Afghan people were certainly not going to be worse off for it, for a more brutal, misogynistic, and genocidal regime than the Taliban would be difficult to imagine.


It is possible the subsequent nation-building effort was doomed to failure anyway, but it might have had a fighting chance if the West's attention and resources had not been diverted to the neocon's other project in Iraq.





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2 years ago  ::  May 03, 2012 - 11:42AM #40
Druac
Posts: 11,487

May 2, 2012 -- 5:04PM, rabello wrote:


May 2, 2012 -- 3:46PM, Druac wrote:


This is what happens when you try to nation build and you invade...ALWAYS.


If we would have ACTUALLY just carpet bombed the nation when they refused to hand over the terrorists...and pulverized all forms of military and communication, the country would be right where it seems to want to be, in the stone age…and of NO threat to us.




Wow


Is all I can say, except for this:


They DID offer to turn over Osama bin Laden, if the Bush administration could provide evidence that bin Laden was guilty.  The Bush administration was characteristically hostile to the request, and the rest is history.  Whether Sheik Omar was serious or not, we can never know, they weren't given the chance.


Apparently some of our remaining hawks have forgotton how bloodthirsty Americans' need to take revenge was back in Dec 2001.




I'm fully aware, and have admitted here myself, that it was all about revenge...even for myself. But if you are going to do it...do it right...that is what I am getting at. The right way to wage "war" is to obliterate the enemy and get it over with ASAP. We should have done that OR stayed out of it.

Jesus Is My Savior...He Saves Me From REALITY!
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We created god in our own image and likeness!
[George Carlin]
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"Reason & Logic" - A Damn Good Slogan!
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"Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion." - Steven Weinberg, an American physicist
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