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Switch to Forum Live View MayDay Protests Turn Violent
2 years ago  ::  May 02, 2012 - 11:42AM #11
catboxer
Posts: 14,012

Rule #2: The guy who knows where to get the dynamite is always undercover FBI.

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2 years ago  ::  May 02, 2012 - 1:24PM #12
amcolph
Posts: 17,458

May 2, 2012 -- 8:45AM, catboxer wrote:


 


My advice to the 50 or so people who split off from the main demonstration yesterday to break stuff is to control your vessel. It may feel good to resort to violence, and of course Bank of America has it coming.


I'd be in favor of it too, if I thought it would do any good.




Still, protests like that must have a certain amount of 'ominousness' to them.  The threat, at least, of violence must always be there.  Splitting off a small, distinct (and ultimately deniable--in case the violence gets out of hand) group seems like a good tactic--as was the Cincinatti OWS decision to cancel their protest because of the link to the bridge bombing team.


In the end, discipline is of utmost importance--whether there is violence or not--not just to avoid bad press, but because a disciplined protest is the most fearsome.

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2 years ago  ::  May 02, 2012 - 1:51PM #13
catboxer
Posts: 14,012

Sorry, Amcolph, but I see no percentage whatever in hooliganism, or even the threat of it.


Force, yes, but not hooliganism. And you can mount force just with the weight of sheer numbers, as we've seen in Egypt and throughout the Middle East, as well as in the battles on Wall Street and the Brooklyn Bridge this past fall, which forced changes in the national conversation.



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2 years ago  ::  May 02, 2012 - 2:08PM #14
Girlchristian
Posts: 11,158

May 2, 2012 -- 1:24PM, amcolph wrote:


May 2, 2012 -- 8:45AM, catboxer wrote:


 


My advice to the 50 or so people who split off from the main demonstration yesterday to break stuff is to control your vessel. It may feel good to resort to violence, and of course Bank of America has it coming.


I'd be in favor of it too, if I thought it would do any good.




Still, protests like that must have a certain amount of 'ominousness' to them.  The threat, at least, of violence must always be there.  Splitting off a small, distinct (and ultimately deniable--in case the violence gets out of hand) group seems like a good tactic--as was the Cincinatti OWS decision to cancel their protest because of the link to the bridge bombing team.


In the end, discipline is of utmost importance--whether there is violence or not--not just to avoid bad press, but because a disciplined protest is the most fearsome.





I disagree. MLK Jr's movement got much more done than the Black Panthers and part of that was because MLK used force in the sense that he had a large number of supporters, but he didn't use violence and he condemned violence as a tactic. Black Panthers used violence and it cost them their credibility.

"No matter how dark the moment, love and hope are always possible." George Chakiris

“For those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who don't believe, no proof is possible.” Stuart Chase
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2 years ago  ::  May 02, 2012 - 2:43PM #15
amcolph
Posts: 17,458

No doubt you two are entirely correct that nonviolence is by far the best way, but you don't want  your adversaries to be too certain of what might happen down the road if they continue to ignore you. 


In the present circumstances sending the message that "a lot of people don't like what you are doing, maybe you'd better stop" isn't going to be nearly enough.

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2 years ago  ::  May 02, 2012 - 7:02PM #16
Bodean
Posts: 9,495

May 2, 2012 -- 2:43PM, amcolph wrote:


No doubt you two are entirely correct that nonviolence is by far the best way, but you don't want  your adversaries to be too certain of what might happen down the road if they continue to ignore you. 


In the present circumstances sending the message that "a lot of people don't like what you are doing, maybe you'd better stop" isn't going to be nearly enough.





The only problem I see with your view AM .. is one has to ask: Who is the Demonstration really for??


Do you think the Demonstration is for Wall Streeters??  Do you think the Demonstrations are for Government Officials?? ..... OR .... is the Demonstration for the PUBLIC as an effort to garner mainstream support for ideas??.. thus pressure politicians to make changes?


I'd say .. protests are for the latter!  You want the PUBLIC to view your organization as a reputable group with reputable ideas.  I don't recall reading story after story about the Tea Party vandalizing places, starting trouble, raping women, destroying property.  While some still oppose the Tea Party Ideas, they can't do so on the basis that they as a group are not primarily upstanding, peaceful people.


Can't say that about some of the "visual" groups of the OWS crowd.  I know there are plenty of reputable peace loving folk .... the problem, is their platform and ideas are of the kind that attract the schaff of the society, who just hate the rich, and think they are owed their pound of flesh.

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2 years ago  ::  May 02, 2012 - 9:06PM #17
Father_Oblivion
Posts: 11,813

Friends of mine present at the Seattle protest claim those "dressed in black" who were causing trouble were wearing new clothes, not a sign of the typical 'Black Bloc' who are usually behind the damage. They (Black Bloc) don't buy new clothes just so they can be destroyed by paint or be discarded because of being soaked with pepper spray, that would be expensive. These people don't have money to spend on new clothes to be worn once and discarded. They use old clothes or buy them at thrift stores.


This sounds like agent provocateurs at work.

The important thing to remember about American history is that it is fictional, a charcoal-sketched simplicity for the children or the easily bored. For the most part it is uninspected, unimagined, unthought, a representative of the thing and not the thing itself. It is a fine fiction...
Neil Gaiman
'American Gods'

‎"Ignorance of ignorance, then, is that self-satisfied state of unawareness in which man, knowing nothing outside the limited area of his physical senses, bumptiously declares there is nothing more to know! He who knows no life save the physical is merely ignorant; but he who declares physical life to be all-important and elevates it to the position of supreme reality--such a one is ignorant of his own ignorance."
- Manly Palmer Hall
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2 years ago  ::  May 02, 2012 - 10:36PM #18
christzen
Posts: 6,569

May 2, 2012 -- 9:06PM, Father_Oblivion wrote:


Friends of mine present at the Seattle protest claim those "dressed in black" who were causing trouble were wearing new clothes, not a sign of the typical 'Black Bloc' who are usually behind the damage. They (Black Bloc) don't buy new clothes just so they can be destroyed by paint or be discarded because of being soaked with pepper spray, that would be expensive. These people don't have money to spend on new clothes to be worn once and discarded. They use old clothes or buy them at thrift stores.


This sounds like agent provocateurs at work.




 


"Friends of mine claim" is proof of agent provocateurs?


 


Or an attempt to shed blame for their own violence?

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2 years ago  ::  May 02, 2012 - 11:52PM #19
ted08721
Posts: 3,752

As far as violence is concern if everyone remembers we had this discussion several months ago with black bloc or outside forces were involved if anyone wants they can go back and search.
I know I read many articles and listened to several hours of audio with a good portion of it being debates between black bloc leaders and those oppose to those tatics like Chris Hedges.

Also all those allegations of rapes had been proven false so if people want to go down that whole road do not look for me to give much of a response if any.
The occupy Movement will still have marches, rallies and protests but they are also have moved on since most camps are now a thing of the past, also are gone are the stories both true and false that came out of those camps.
Tonight I watch a segment on Viewpoint With Eliot Spitzer, he interview a young man and woman that worked for those large banks on Wall Street, they files a public brief.

A new day for OWS: Josh Harkinson and Yetta Kurland review May Day and assess the movement's future
I don't know if this link will work if you don't have Comcast

xfinitytv.comcast.net/tv/Viewpoint-With-...

Here is another link that does not go through Comcast it does not have tonight's show but one from yesterday about Occupy

current.com/shows/viewpoint/videos/a-new...

 
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2 years ago  ::  May 03, 2012 - 12:05AM #20
ted08721
Posts: 3,752



As far as what Occupy's message is that many claimed they did not knoweven though they could have looked at the protest signs to find out, I think these people did know but just wanted to belly ache that they didn't understand. well here is a real pie chart for you 

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