Post Reply
Page 5 of 5  •  Prev 1 2 3 4 5
Switch to Forum Live View Olympics website: Jerusalem capital of ‘Palestine’
2 years ago  ::  May 06, 2012 - 5:55AM #41
habesor
Posts: 5,648

By the way, Miraj, do you consider the United States as a beacon of religious freedom, even though the practice of certain elements of the Mormon faith have been made illegal? I ask this only because I wonder if you think Israel should be compared to the USA (or France and Switzerland) in terms of religious freedom. 


Habesor

Habesor
Quick Reply
Cancel
2 years ago  ::  May 06, 2012 - 6:13AM #42
BDboy
Posts: 5,339

May 6, 2012 -- 5:51AM, habesor wrote:


Miraj, you wrote:


"The problem with this argument, practically the only one that anyone ever makes here, is that the best anyone can do is compare Israel favorably to despotic governments, not freedom loving countries." 



Of course, I see things differently. It seems to me that the problem is the application of double standards combined with a misstatement of facts on the ground that result in a high degree of hypocrisy on the part of critics of Israel. This is especially so with those who advocate that the Jewish State of Israel should be replaced by one Arab state. It seems to me that comparing Israel to any and all of the more than two score Arab states now in existence, is perfectly reasonable, especially when the advocacy of an additional Arab state in the place of Israel is considered.


Habesor 




 


>>>>>> Habesor,


I always enjoy your posts even though I do not always agree with you.


There are a lot of truth in what you expressed here. However most Isralis and government of Israel starts with the "Baseline" assumtion that, it is OK for Israel to grab more land from locals. It is OK to have a "Goal" to keep Israel a "Jewish" state and support all unfair (Unfair to local non-Jews!) policies to keep that goal.


Israel also work under a "Unreal" expectation that, Israel can push out native population from their ancestral lands but they "HAVE to" accept it, because Jewish religion said it few thousand years ago!!


Maybe as a Jew, it all sounds "Normal" to you but sounds "Really crazy" and "Fanatical" to the rest of the civilized world.


Lastly, Israel has a record of supporting dictators in neighboring countries (As long they accepted descriminatory Israeli policies). Shah of Iran, Mubarak of Egypt are some good examples of such self-destructive plicies of Israel.


I sincerely hope, majority of Israelis come to the understanding that, Israel cannot control ME with arms and tanks forever. Vietnam proved even the mightiest army could not do it if the cause was not ethical. Israel has to come to some solution for it's own sake. I pray for the day when both Israelis and Palestinians live in peace in the holy land. It will benifit Israelis in a large way.

Quick Reply
Cancel
2 years ago  ::  May 06, 2012 - 6:18AM #43
Miraj
Posts: 5,021

May 6, 2012 -- 1:39AM, habesor wrote:


I think that there has been a bit of exageration in the claims that there is no religious freedom in the State of Israel or that it is illegal to convert from Judaism to another religion. Even the prohibition on  proselytizers is a misstatement of fact. Here is the relevant quote on these matters from a US State Department report on freedom in Israel and the territories:


"A 1977 anti-proselytizing law prohibits any person from offering or receiving material benefits as an inducement to conversion; however, there have been no reports of the law's enforcement. A bill that would have restricted proselytizing further was promulgated in 2000; however, similar bills did not reach a final vote in the past and local observers do not believe that this bill will be enacted. Christian and other evangelical groups asserted that the draft bills were discriminatory and served to intimidate Christian groups.


Missionaries are allowed to proselytize, although the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (Mormons) voluntarily refrains from proselytizing under an agreement with the Government.


There were no prosecutions of the over 120 cases of harassment filed by members of Jehovah's Witnesses between 1998 and 2000. There were no complaints of harassment of members of Jehovah's Witnesses during the period covered by this report."


There were no reports of religious prisoners or detainees.


Forced Religious Conversion


There were no reports of forced religious conversion, including of minor U.S. citizens who had been abducted or illegally removed from the United States, or of the Government's refusal to allow such citizens to be returned to the United States."



The entire report is worthwhile reading and I think factually correct. It discusses problems of religious discrimination in Israel, some of which I would argue with as being inaccurate interpretations of statistics. But there is manifestations of discrimination in Israel although I think that the Israeli authorities do a fairly reasonable job of keeping the peace between and within the various religions and allowing full expression of religious beliefs.


The full report can be found at:


www.state.gov/j/drl/rls/irf/2001/5697.ht... 


Habesor




The claim was that there is limited freedom of religion, not that there is no freedom of religion, as stated above, so there is no exaggeration involved.  There is also no claim that it is illegal for Jews to convert out of Judaism, but proselytizing for the purpose of attempting to convert Jews is essentially illegal because offering "material inducements" to convert is not clearly defined.


The State Department report isn't anything to brag about.  In real life, freedom of religion is limited in Israel due to the need to prefer Judaism over other faiths in order to keep Jews in the majority.  The report even cites the practice of counting non-Jewish spouses of Jews as Jewish for that purpose.  


Another interesting report is Rising Restrictions on Religion, an analysis published in August 2011 by the Pew Forum on Religious & Public Life.  Israel is ranked very high in social hostilities involving religion:


As of mid-2009, social hostilities involving religion were high or very high in 40 countries, about one-in-five worldwide. The 10 countries that had very high hostilities as of mid-2009 were Iraq, India, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Somalia, Indonesia, Nigeria, Bangladesh, Israel and Egypt.


Israel also ranked high regarding governmental restrictions on religious liberty:


Israel's score is driven up by security policies that sometimes have the effect of limiting access to religious sites, and by its preferential treatment of Orthodox Jews. The government recognizes only Orthodox Jewish religious authorities in some personal status matters (such as marriage) concerning Jews and devotes the bulk of state funds provided for religion to Orthodox Jews, even though they make up only a small portion of all Jews in Israel.


. . . 


The list of countries with very high levels of social hostilities differs considerably from the list of those with the most restrictive governments. Only one country, Saudi Arabia, appears on both lists. Several others that are very high in social hostilities also score in the high range on government restrictions; these include India, Indonesia, Pakistan, Iraq, Afghanistan, Somalia and Israel.


Israel's preference for Orthodox Judism causes "not Jewish enough" Jews significant problems.


Israel Deports Some Converted Immigrants


State Rejects Haredi Rabbis' Conversions to Judaism


By Nathan Jeffay


Published December 17, 2011, issue of December 23, 2011.

TEL AVIV


Within the next few weeks Martina Ragachova could be deported from Israel — for being too frum. >Not Jewish Enough: Martina Ragachova is facing deportation from Israel because her conversion to Judaism has been rejected.


Prague-born Ragachova, 37, moved to Israel a decade ago, and in 2004 converted to Judaism in the Bnei Brak rabbinic court of Nissim Karelitz, one of the world’s best-respected and most stringent Haredi rabbis. Karelitz was so moved by the genuineness of her commitment to Judaism that he knelt before her by way of congratulation.


Prior to this ultra-Orthodox conversion, Ragachova had applied to become Jewish in the modern-Orthodox state-run conversion courts. But they did not accept her application. So she took the private Haredi track.


She now has a conversion certificate that is accepted by virtually every rabbi in the world, in contrast to the state conversion she originally applied for, which is viewed with skepticism by large sections of the Orthodox community. But because she took her conversion into her own hands, Israel’s state rabbinate and Interior Ministry insist that she is not Jewish.



  • Published 03:51 11.07.11
  • Latest update 03:51 11.07.11


American Jew refused entry to Israel on suspicion of converting to Islam


Two years after participating in a Taglit-Birthright tour, Harald Fuller-Bennett was denied entry into Israel. The Shin Bet claimed he had links to terrorists and suspected him of no longer being Jewish.


There's more, but there's always more.


Disclaimer: The opinions of this member are not primarily informed by western ethnocentric paradigms, stereotypes rooted in anti-Muslim/Islam hysteria, "Israel can do no wrong" intransigence, or the perceived need to protect the Judeo-Christian world from invading foreign religions and legal concepts.  By expressing such views, no inherent attempt is being made to derail or hijack threads, but that may be the result.  The result is not the responsibility of this member.


PhotobucketPhotobucket
Quick Reply
Cancel
2 years ago  ::  May 06, 2012 - 6:30AM #44
Miraj
Posts: 5,021

May 6, 2012 -- 5:51AM, habesor wrote:


Miraj, you wrote:


"The problem with this argument, practically the only one that anyone ever makes here, is that the best anyone can do is compare Israel favorably to despotic governments, not freedom loving countries." 



Of course, I see things differently. It seems to me that the problem is the application of double standards combined with a misstatement of facts on the ground that result in a high degree of hypocrisy on the part of critics of Israel. This is especially so with those who advocate that the Jewish State of Israel should be replaced by one Arab state. It seems to me that comparing Israel to any and all of the more than two score Arab states now in existence, is perfectly reasonable, especially when the advocacy of an additional Arab state in the place of Israel is considered.


Habesor 




The high degree if hypocrisy on the part of Israel's sychophants is based on a denial of the facts on the ground.  Many of them here have never even been to Israel and/or the ME countries they compare it to.  As for the notion of the one state solution resulting in another Arab state, that will be the result of demographics, the occupation, and government policies that few Israelis seem to resist. 

Disclaimer: The opinions of this member are not primarily informed by western ethnocentric paradigms, stereotypes rooted in anti-Muslim/Islam hysteria, "Israel can do no wrong" intransigence, or the perceived need to protect the Judeo-Christian world from invading foreign religions and legal concepts.  By expressing such views, no inherent attempt is being made to derail or hijack threads, but that may be the result.  The result is not the responsibility of this member.


PhotobucketPhotobucket
Quick Reply
Cancel
2 years ago  ::  May 06, 2012 - 6:38AM #45
Miraj
Posts: 5,021

May 6, 2012 -- 5:55AM, habesor wrote:


By the way, Miraj, do you consider the United States as a beacon of religious freedom, even though the practice of certain elements of the Mormon faith have been made illegal? I ask this only because I wonder if you think Israel should be compared to the USA (or France and Switzerland) in terms of religious freedom. 


Habesor




In order for Utah to become a state, it had to drop the allowance of plural marriage for Mormon men.  The LDS Church itself dropped the allowance, so it is not allowed for any mainstream Mormon anywhere in the world.


So, it is not an apt analogy to say that a practice that is no longer a practice is not allowed in the US when comparing it to a faith practice that remains a faith practice that is not allowed in Israel.  A better analogy would be that the denial of plural marriage to Muslims in the US who believe that the practice is allowed by Islam (not all do).  Yet, even that is a flawed analogy considering that plural marriage is not a requirement of Islam, as is proselytizing to save souls for Christians.

Disclaimer: The opinions of this member are not primarily informed by western ethnocentric paradigms, stereotypes rooted in anti-Muslim/Islam hysteria, "Israel can do no wrong" intransigence, or the perceived need to protect the Judeo-Christian world from invading foreign religions and legal concepts.  By expressing such views, no inherent attempt is being made to derail or hijack threads, but that may be the result.  The result is not the responsibility of this member.


PhotobucketPhotobucket
Quick Reply
Cancel
2 years ago  ::  May 06, 2012 - 7:15AM #46
habesor
Posts: 5,648

Miraj, in message #36 you began with:


"Freedom of religion doesn't exist in Israel."


In reply I wrote:


"I think that there has been a bit of exageration in the claims that there is no religious freedom in the State of Israel ."


Your response was:



"The claim was that there is limited freedom of religion, not that there is no freedom of religion, as stated above, so there is no exaggeration involved." 



Miraj, when someone states that freedom of religion does not exist in the State of Israel, when in fact there is limited freedom of religion, then I think we can reasonably assert that the first statement was an exaggeration. We can legitimately argue and disagree on how much freedom of religion exists, but there is nothing to argue about the statement that freedom of religion not existing, being an exaggeration.  


If you want to modify or correct your original statement, that's fine. I sometimes overstate things too. It's no big deal as long as one is willing to make a correction.


Habesor

Habesor
Quick Reply
Cancel
2 years ago  ::  May 06, 2012 - 9:42AM #47
Miraj
Posts: 5,021

The statement was in accord with the comment I was responding to: Freedom of religion doesn't exist in any Muslim country, and certainly not in any of Israel's neighbors. In context of the erroneous impressions many westerners hold re religious rights across the ME, my response wasn't an exaggeration.  Even you admitted that freedom of religion in Israel was more equitably compared to other ME countries than it is to the US.  In fact, the Pew Report I linked to earlier bears that out.


In comparison to Israel's allowances for the Mormons, Bahrain, Kuwait, the United Arab Emirates, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Oman, and Yemen all allow Mormons to operate within their borders, with the same agreement that they not proselytize.  Both Dubai and Bahrain recognize the LDS Church, granting it legal status.  


The LDS Church opened its Center for Cultural and Educational Affairs in Amman, Jordan in 1989, where it holds religious services, academic classes, cultural exchanges with the University of Jordan and Yarmouk University, medical services and economic assistance to the poor.  Its presense is government sanctioned and not at all low-key, although, like in Israel, LDS in Jordan is not allowed to proselytize.


May 6, 2012 -- 7:15AM, habesor wrote:


Miraj, in message #36 you began with:


"Freedom of religion doesn't exist in Israel."


In reply I wrote:


"I think that there has been a bit of exageration in the claims that there is no religious freedom in the State of Israel ."


Your response was:



"The claim was that there is limited freedom of religion, not that there is no freedom of religion, as stated above, so there is no exaggeration involved." 



Miraj, when someone states that freedom of religion does not exist in the State of Israel, when in fact there is limited freedom of religion, then I think we can reasonably assert that the first statement was an exaggeration. We can legitimately argue and disagree on how much freedom of religion exists, but there is nothing to argue about the statement that freedom of religion not existing, being an exaggeration.  


If you want to modify or correct your original statement, that's fine. I sometimes overstate things too. It's no big deal as long as one is willing to make a correction.


Habesor





Disclaimer: The opinions of this member are not primarily informed by western ethnocentric paradigms, stereotypes rooted in anti-Muslim/Islam hysteria, "Israel can do no wrong" intransigence, or the perceived need to protect the Judeo-Christian world from invading foreign religions and legal concepts.  By expressing such views, no inherent attempt is being made to derail or hijack threads, but that may be the result.  The result is not the responsibility of this member.


PhotobucketPhotobucket
Quick Reply
Cancel
Page 5 of 5  •  Prev 1 2 3 4 5
 
    Viewing this thread :: 0 registered and 1 guest
    No registered users viewing
    Advertisement

    Beliefnet On Facebook