Post Reply
Page 7 of 9  •  Prev 1 ... 4 5 6 7 8 9 Next
Switch to Forum Live View discrimination does still continue to exist
2 years ago  ::  May 02, 2012 - 11:53AM #61
Girlchristian
Posts: 11,035

May 2, 2012 -- 11:17AM, nnsecu wrote:


I have no problem with equality as long as we are talking about true equality.  Many times in my life equality means equal pay but not equal expectations. I once worked in an office as the only male anytime desks, file cabinets, or the 30ft ladder needed to be climbed to change a light all the sudden women were not equal to me in the expectations of their ability to preform the task.  When the toilet was stopped up it was not the women who had to plunge and clean up the crap water.   When cars broke down in the parking lot it was not the women who had to push them on the 100+ degree days.  All of these were somehow socially acceptable forms of gender discrimination. 


I work in an office where the men want the women to let them do that kind of stuff. It's the men here that set that expectation.


My current employer has a requirement for males to be able to lift 50lbs, yet the female requirement is only 30.  Many of the women want to complain about not getting the same pay as men do, but are quiet on demanding equality in requiring the same physical expectations.


Then it's no longer equal work and, as such, doesn't deserve equal pay.


You can not have it both ways.  Either you support equality among the genders in all shapes and forms or you believe there are differences in the genders and accept that in all shapes and forms.


Agree.





"No matter how dark the moment, love and hope are always possible." George Chakiris

“For those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who don't believe, no proof is possible.” Stuart Chase
Quick Reply
Cancel
2 years ago  ::  May 02, 2012 - 12:28PM #62
Bodean
Posts: 9,211

May 2, 2012 -- 11:17AM, nnsecu wrote:


I have no problem with equality as long as we are talking about true equality.  Many times in my life equality means equal pay but not equal expectations. I once worked in an office as the only male anytime desks, file cabinets, or the 30ft ladder needed to be climbed to change a light all the sudden women were not equal to me in the expectations of their ability to preform the task.  When the toilet was stopped up it was not the women who had to plunge and clean up the crap water.   When cars broke down in the parking lot it was not the women who had to push them on the 100+ degree days.  All of these were somehow socially acceptable forms of gender discrimination. 



My current employer has a requirement for males to be able to lift 50lbs, yet the female requirement is only 30.  Many of the women want to complain about not getting the same pay as men do, but are quiet on demanding equality in requiring the same physical expectations.



You can not have it both ways.  Either you support equality among the genders in all shapes and forms or you believe there are differences in the genders and accept that in all shapes and forms.





Your perspective goes beyond just physical capabilities.


Here is a whole list of differences that contribute to the gender gap ...

  • Men go into technology and hard sciences more than women.
  • Men are more likely to take hazardous jobs than women, and such jobs pay more than cushier and safer jobs.
  • Men are more willing to expose themselves to inclement weather at work, and are compensated for it ("compensating differences" in the language of economics).
  • Men tend to take more stressful jobs that are not "nine-to-five."
  • Many women prefer personal fulfillment at work (child care professional, for example) to higher pay.
  • Men are bigger risk takers than women, in general. Higher risk leads to higher reward.
  • The worst working hours pay more, and men are more likely to work these hours than women.
  • Dangerous jobs (coal mining) pay more and are more male dominated.
  • Men tend to "update" their work qualifications more than women do.
  • Men are more likely to work longer hours, and the pay gap widens for every hour past 40 per week.
  • Women are more likely to have "gaps" in their careers, primarily because of child rearing and child care. Less experience means lower pay.
  • Women are nine times more likely than men to drop out of work for "family reasons." Less seniority leads to lower pay.
  • Men work more weeks per year than women.
  • Men have half the absenteeism rate of women.
  • Men are more willing to commute long distances to work.
  • Men are more willing to relocate to undesirable locations for higher-paying jobs.
  • Men are more willing to take jobs that require extensive travel.
  • In the corporate world men are more likely to choose higher-paying fields such as finance and sales, whereas women are more prevalent in lower-paying fields such as human resources and public relations.
  • When men and women have the same job title, male responsibilities tend to be greater.
  • Men are more likely to work by commission; women are more likely to seek job security. The former has more earning potential.
  • Women place greater value on flexibility, a humane work environment, and having time for children and family than men do.

When you add all this up, and combine it with the many other things discussed on this thread, ... that 4-5% "compensation disparity" ... is not so fricken bad.


Granted .. we all agree .... all things equal, pay should be equal.  But ... reality has it, all things are usually not equal.

Quick Reply
Cancel
2 years ago  ::  May 02, 2012 - 1:02PM #63
amcolph
Posts: 17,153

May 2, 2012 -- 12:28PM, Bodean wrote:


 


 


Granted .. we all agree .... all things equal, pay should be equal.  But ... reality has it, all things are usually not equal.




Now the question becomes, to what extent are women who want "men's" jobs and are willing and able to do them considered fairly for the positions?

This post contains no advertisements or solicitations.
Quick Reply
Cancel
2 years ago  ::  May 02, 2012 - 1:34PM #64
Bodean
Posts: 9,211

May 2, 2012 -- 1:02PM, amcolph wrote:


May 2, 2012 -- 12:28PM, Bodean wrote:


 


 


Granted .. we all agree .... all things equal, pay should be equal.  But ... reality has it, all things are usually not equal.




Now the question becomes, to what extent are women who want "men's" jobs and are willing and able to do them considered fairly for the positions?





Amcoph ... no statistic deals with an individual case.  The numbers of the OP were not based on interviews with individuals, but were collations of data from different sources, such as census.


Are there cases where women want men's jobs??  Of course!  Are they considered fairly??  Don't know!  I"m sure some are, some aren't.  But then, I know the same applies to men as well.


There's another aspect that is not covered in ANY of the reading I've seen, but it is probably the most important of all.  NETWORKING!!   Most jobs are had through networking.  Females tend to run in female networks, and males tend to run in male networks.  This effect gives "preference" to, but does not necessarily "actively discriminate" against.


One of the articles I saw did mention that more women in hirering positions benefits women.  Are these hirering women discriminating against men??  If that fair??

Quick Reply
Cancel
2 years ago  ::  May 02, 2012 - 2:36PM #65
Do_unto_others
Posts: 8,375

May 2, 2012 -- 1:02PM, amcolph wrote:


Now the question becomes, to what extent are women who want "men's" jobs and are willing and able to do them considered fairly for the positions?





WTF is a "men's job"?

Quick Reply
Cancel
2 years ago  ::  May 02, 2012 - 2:38PM #66
Do_unto_others
Posts: 8,375

Regarding gender roles, read the sage advice of a Baptist pastor:


 


"


"So your little son starts to act a little girlish when he is four years old and instead of squashing that like a cockroach and saying, 'Man up, son, get that dress off you and get outside and dig a ditch, because that is what boys do,' you get out the camera and you start taking pictures of Johnny acting like a female and then you upload it to YouTube and everybody laughs about it and the next thing you know, this dude, this kid is acting out childhood fantasies that should have been squashed.

Dads, the second you see your son dropping the limp wrist, you walk over there and crack that wrist. Man up. Give him a good punch. Ok? You are not going to act like that. You were made by God to be a male and you are going to be a male. And when your daughter starts acting too butch, you reign [sic] her in. And you say, 'Oh, no, sweetheart. You can play sports. Play them to the glory of God. But sometimes you are going to act like a girl and walk like a girl and talk like a girl and smell like a girl and that means you are going to be beautiful. You are going to be attractive. You are going to dress yourself up.'"


Quick Reply
Cancel
2 years ago  ::  May 02, 2012 - 2:45PM #67
amcolph
Posts: 17,153

May 2, 2012 -- 2:36PM, Do_unto_others wrote:


May 2, 2012 -- 1:02PM, amcolph wrote:


Now the question becomes, to what extent are women who want "men's" jobs and are willing and able to do them considered fairly for the positions?





WTF is a "men's job"?




Bodean posted a list of characteristics--ask him.

This post contains no advertisements or solicitations.
Quick Reply
Cancel
2 years ago  ::  May 02, 2012 - 3:13PM #68
TENAC
Posts: 25,121
Duo,  would that be Jeremiah Wright?
Any man can count the seeds in an apple....
.......but only God can count the apples in the seeds.
Quick Reply
Cancel
2 years ago  ::  May 02, 2012 - 10:03PM #69
christzen
Posts: 6,366

May 2, 2012 -- 2:45PM, amcolph wrote:


May 2, 2012 -- 2:36PM, Do_unto_others wrote:


May 2, 2012 -- 1:02PM, amcolph wrote:


Now the question becomes, to what extent are women who want "men's" jobs and are willing and able to do them considered fairly for the positions?





WTF is a "men's job"?




Bodean posted a list of characteristics--ask him.




 


I would offer this to both of you.


 


I once worked for a company installing cablevision wiring in towns that had no cable TV.Ancient history,I know (1980ish).We might spend about 6 months in each town.The jobs consisted primarily of linemen who climbed the 30' poles,of which I was one,and ground hands,who did the support work on the ground.The ground work was both physical and required some technical knowledge of the tools and materials.The company paid travel expenses to the linemen,but did not consider the ground hands worth paying to travel,so we hired new ones at each place and spent time teaching them the job.Since most of the linemen were married and their wives traveled with them,the company hit upon a novel idea.Hire the wives as the ground hands,then lay them off after each job.Since they traveled with their husbands anyway,they came along for free and got rehired.It was a win/win.The company got experienced ground hands,the wives had jobs waiting at each new place without having to go looking for hamburger flipping jobs.


Until the work actually started.Then it was discovered that the women could not carry one particular 75 lb piece of equipment from the trucks to the base of the poles as they were supposed to,and they certainly couldn't lift it above their heads as ground hands were supposed to in order to save the linemen that first 7' of pulling up a 75 lb lasher to their position 30' in the air.Which meant  that the linemen were having to help carry the equipment to the pole that another lineman was up on while on their way past it to their own next pole,plus the lineman on said pole had to lift it from the ground up instead of having help that first 7'.After much griping about their inability to properly perform their jobs,a guy was hired to be merely the carrying and lifting grunt,which ended up working fine.We still had the women who knew the technical aspects of the job and were capable of doing most of the physical part,and we had a man on the ground that didn't need training to simply do the heavy toting and lifting.But he was paid for by paying each woman a little less to cover his minimum wage salary.Which means,of course,if you did a salary comparison the women would show up as getting screwed around,without the actual facts of the case showing up in the midst of all the statistics.I wonder how much this happens yet is denied or ignored by those complaining about unequal pay for women?


 


I could also give examples of the inabilities of women to properly do the job of a firefighter from my time as a volunteer one.Although we did not have any in our dept,we trained with one that had a number  of women,and I can say without apology I would not want to partner with a normal size and strength woman going into a burning house.


 


As Mark Twain famously said "There are lies,damn lies,and statistics."  Someimes you have to look past the bare statistics to get all the relevant facts,and therefore,...the truth.


 


BTW,how about responding to Bodean's (mostly) relevant list of reasons for the pay gap instead of fixating on one term used in it?It really does explain a lot,even if feminists and their supporters don't like the facts presented.

Quick Reply
Cancel
2 years ago  ::  May 03, 2012 - 8:44AM #70
Do_unto_others
Posts: 8,375

May 2, 2012 -- 3:13PM, TENAC wrote:

Duo, would that be Jeremiah Wright?




No. It's "Rev'd." Sean Harris. You could look it up. (I know you're not that computer illiterate or ignorant of what's happening in the USA's "Christian" world.)


Way to try to slough off the blame.

Quick Reply
Cancel
Page 7 of 9  •  Prev 1 ... 4 5 6 7 8 9 Next
 
    Viewing this thread :: 0 registered and 1 guest
    No registered users viewing
    Advertisement

    Beliefnet On Facebook