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2 years ago  ::  Apr 30, 2012 - 12:52PM #11
TENAC
Posts: 23,948

Apr 30, 2012 -- 12:27PM, amcolph wrote:


Apr 30, 2012 -- 12:09PM, Girlchristian wrote:


 


I don't think that's fair. Even in the low paying, minimal requirement jobs, women tend to take off work more when children are sick or have school functions, they're the ones that go on maternity leave, and they're the ones that ask for more flexibility in schedule. If one makes that choice then one has to accept lower pay. Many women gladly make that choice.




All right, let's get down to basics.  Bodean's position is that employers are always justified in paying a man more than a woman for the same work.


Let's say I go over to the Home Depot parking lot where day laborers gather.  There I find a group of men and women waiting to be hired for a day's work they are all equally capable of doing.  If I hire a woman rather than a man for the day's work, and she performs it, why am I justified in paying her less?


And don't blow me a lot of smoke about ROI or time off for school functions or any of that other self-serving crap.





Day laborers.


There you are.  


If the woman wants the job, she can have it.  She can determine not to work for less, it would be her choice. 


I would further submit in these situations, women might be the better hire and you would more likely see reverse payment inequality.


 


I was sitting in a regional managers group for a national business.  We were all principles and discussing hiring practices.  One of my contempories there said he had two inidividuals for a sales job, one a man the other a woman. 


His final question to them at the end of the inerview was "Ok, if hired, I have two people who can train you, one will start Monday at 6:00, the other will start at 9:00, which do you want to work with?"  "Oh," she said, "I couldnt possible begin until I drop my daughter at daycare at 7:00."


The guy chose 6:00 and got the job.


Sounds cruel?  Unfair?  The height of inequality?


 


My friend might have done himself a disservice if the woman were a phenomenal sales person and could double sales working the short hours, but he wasnt going to take that risk.  He is incredibly successful.


 


This plays into what Bo is referring to.  I dont fault him for following his business model, any more than would I fault her for not taking the job, but this is a harsh reality of life.

Any man can count the seeds in an apple....
.......but only God can count the apples in the seeds.
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 30, 2012 - 2:07PM #12
Kwinters
Posts: 18,311

I have provided facts.  I have provided the findings of a study.


The bile spewed by sexist men who have no interest in making sure that women have equal opportunites are not worthy of any response.


The question remains. Republican voters: how do we fix the economic inequality American women face?

Jesus had two dads, and he turned out alright.~ Andy Gussert

“Feminism has fought no wars. It has killed no opponents. It has set up no concentration camps, starved no enemies, practiced no cruelties. Its battles have been for education, for the vote, for better working conditions…for safety on the streets…for child care, for social welfare…for rape crisis centers, women’s refuges, reforms in the law.

If someone says, “Oh, I’m not a feminist,” I ask, “Why, what’s your problem?”

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 30, 2012 - 2:07PM #13
Kwinters
Posts: 18,311

www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3096434/#47233762

Jesus had two dads, and he turned out alright.~ Andy Gussert

“Feminism has fought no wars. It has killed no opponents. It has set up no concentration camps, starved no enemies, practiced no cruelties. Its battles have been for education, for the vote, for better working conditions…for safety on the streets…for child care, for social welfare…for rape crisis centers, women’s refuges, reforms in the law.

If someone says, “Oh, I’m not a feminist,” I ask, “Why, what’s your problem?”

Dale Spender
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 30, 2012 - 2:30PM #14
amcolph
Posts: 16,325

Apr 30, 2012 -- 12:52PM, TENAC wrote:


Day laborers.


There you are.  




I don' t care how suits, male or female, conduct their affairs.  In any case there was nothing necessarily gender related in your example.


Remember, Bodean's assertion was,


 " As such, ALL women are less valuable as new hires than men."


If you don't like the day labor example, let's take another:


Say I hire two people to mop the floors and tidy up in the company lunchroom, one a man, the other a woman.  They both already know how to mop and each does a pretty good job.  The woman takes a day off now and again when her grandchild is sick.  The man calls in once in a while, too, mostly on Mondays (wink, wink).  On the whole, their performance, attendance record and prospects for promotion (none) are about equal.


You are telling me that, because she is female, the woman can be paid less than the man.  How much less, and why?


 


 



 

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 30, 2012 - 2:33PM #15
Ironhold
Posts: 10,918

Apr 30, 2012 -- 2:07PM, Kwinters wrote:


I have provided facts.  I have provided the findings of a study.


The bile spewed by sexist men who have no interest in making sure that women have equal opportunites are not worthy of any response.


The question remains. Republican voters: how do we fix the economic inequality American women face?




Better idea: we let nature take its course and gently nudge it along as needed.


You see, France just recently found out the hard way that attempting to legislate away gender inequality is doomed to backfire.


The French government decided that not enough women were on corporate boards, and so they passed a law requiring that a minimum percentage of board seats be held exclusively for women.


Thing is, there aren't anywheres near enough women in France who have the experience and education necessary to make effective board members.


Instead, those seats are now going to the wives, girlfriends, and mistresses of board members and key stockholders.


Rather than produce the promised equality, France has instead legitimized crony capitalism and created an entire generation of female figureheads whose only qualifications are their reproductive organs and their ability to nod willingly as the men handle the actual business of the company.

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 30, 2012 - 2:36PM #16
Girlchristian
Posts: 10,742

A study done in 2006 (by Walker) revealed that men put more emphasis on what they make than women do. Men focus more on pay and demand that pay and women focus more on nice work environment and societal contributions. That same study revealed that men are more likely to take higher risks and take jobs that pay more even though they offer less stability while women are more likely to choose the job that pays less while being more stable.


Here is another interesting piece to note:


The answer depends on whom you ask — and so does the size of the gap. Some say 77% is overly grim. One reason: it doesn't account for individual differences between workers. Once you control for factors like education and experience, notes Francine Blau — who, along with fellow Cornell economist Lawrence Kahn, published a study on the 1998 wage gap — women's earnings rise to 81% of men's. Factor in occupation, industry and whether they belong to a union, and they jump to 91%. That's partly because women tend to cluster in lower-paying fields. The most-educated swath of women, for example, gravitates toward the teaching and nursing fields. Men with comparable education become business executives, scientists, doctors and lawyers — jobs that pay significantly more.


www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,...


 

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 30, 2012 - 2:37PM #17
TENAC
Posts: 23,948
K, you are now asking for equal opportunity, and that you have.  Equal pay is another matter, and remains at the employers discretion..
Any man can count the seeds in an apple....
.......but only God can count the apples in the seeds.
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 30, 2012 - 2:43PM #18
amcolph
Posts: 16,325

Apr 30, 2012 -- 2:37PM, TENAC wrote:

K, you are now asking for equal opportunity, and that you have. Equal pay is another matter, and remains at the employers discretion..



So how much less should I pay my female lunchroom attendant, and why?


Remember, the proposition on the table is that  " As such, ALL women are less valuable as new hires than men."

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 30, 2012 - 2:44PM #19
TENAC
Posts: 23,948
Am, any manager or business owner has to rake into account absentism for whatever reason.  Perhaps they both need to be replaced.  My example was purely gender related, this us less.
Any man can count the seeds in an apple....
.......but only God can count the apples in the seeds.
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 30, 2012 - 2:50PM #20
amcolph
Posts: 16,325

Apr 30, 2012 -- 2:44PM, TENAC wrote:

Am, any manager or business owner has to rake into account absentism for whatever reason. Perhaps they both need to be replaced. My example was purely gender related, this us less.



Your example was related to child care needs, not directly to gender, and involved management-level intangibles.


Both of my hypothetical employees have acceptable performance and attendance records, but


 " As such, ALL women are less valuable as new hires than men."


How much less valuable is the female lunchroom attendant, and why?

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