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Switch to Forum Live View A dose of humility needed in predicting Israel’s future
3 years ago  ::  Apr 27, 2012 - 6:24PM #1
rocketjsquirell
Posts: 16,771
This is probably a good idea (the humility part) but I do not think the advice will be taken. Neither the Israeli left nor the right is likely to give up their positions or admit that they could be wrong (and it is even less likely that the anti-Israel folks will ever do so).

So where are you, left? right? or somewhere in between? How does one decide which is the right course when all courses inevitably "lead to disaster" (at least according to someone) ?

A dose of humility needed in predicting Israel’s future

. . .

In the debate about Israel’s future, Jews on both the right and the left often argue that if Israel doesn’t listen to them, the Jewish state will face certain ruin. It’s high time that they start showing some intellectual humility, which begins with the notion that there’s a lot that we don’t know, and that events can and often do turn out differently than any of us can predict.

Some voices on the right assert that ifIsraelagrees to a two-state solution, it will be left with “Auschwitz borders” indefensible against ultimate and inevitable attack. You can see this kind of rhetoric in recent comments made by a government minister at a rally with settlers. Likewise, Ronn Torossian, a New York public relations executive, slammed the Obama Administration for what he deemed a call to “return to the Auschwitz borders.”

The left is not immune from such extreme prognostication, either. Noted American Jewish liberal thinker Leonard Fein recently wrote the following:

    I am happy to acknowledge my own fallibility… But respect the view that Israel should hold on to all the West Bank, come what may? To my way of thinking, that is a proposal that Israel commit suicide.

Similarly, Haaretz commentator Bradley Burston recently argued that the true Auschwitz borders are the status quo. Bradley furnishes a parade of horribles if Israel fails to cut a deal with the current Palestinian Authority:

    Such targets as Ben-Gurion International Airport, the towers of Tel Aviv and the settlements themselves will be much more difficult to defend. The security burden of policing an anarchic West Bank will greatly intensify… The longer the occupation endures, the more likely it is that Jews will find themselves a minority in Israel and the West Bank. The apartheid analogy will be complete.
. . .

As much as they may otherwise claim, the political left and right offer us no ironclad certainties — only worst case scenarios. Those of us in the center must keep our wits about us, and be uneasy without becoming unhinged. For all, a dose of humility is in order.

full article:
blogs.timesofisrael.com/a-dose-of-humili...
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3 years ago  ::  Apr 27, 2012 - 6:51PM #2
Miraj
Posts: 5,021

1SS wiill be the future, that's why I'm in the center  Laughing

Disclaimer: The opinions of this member are not primarily informed by western ethnocentric paradigms, stereotypes rooted in anti-Muslim/Islam hysteria, "Israel can do no wrong" intransigence, or the perceived need to protect the Judeo-Christian world from invading foreign religions and legal concepts.  By expressing such views, no inherent attempt is being made to derail or hijack threads, but that may be the result.  The result is not the responsibility of this member.


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3 years ago  ::  Apr 27, 2012 - 6:59PM #3
rocketjsquirell
Posts: 16,771

Miraj


The 1SS is just a bunch of nonsense and its "inevitability" (or desirability for that matter) is based on even more unrealistic predictions and assumptions than either the right or the Left have managed to produce.

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3 years ago  ::  Apr 27, 2012 - 8:09PM #4
Miraj
Posts: 5,021

Apr 27, 2012 -- 6:59PM, rocketjsquirell wrote:


Miraj


The 1SS is just a bunch of nonsense and its "inevitability" (or desirability for that matter) is based on even more unrealistic predictions and assumptions than either the right or the Left have managed to produce.





I'm not worried.  It'll come to be.  There's no other choice. 

Disclaimer: The opinions of this member are not primarily informed by western ethnocentric paradigms, stereotypes rooted in anti-Muslim/Islam hysteria, "Israel can do no wrong" intransigence, or the perceived need to protect the Judeo-Christian world from invading foreign religions and legal concepts.  By expressing such views, no inherent attempt is being made to derail or hijack threads, but that may be the result.  The result is not the responsibility of this member.


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3 years ago  ::  Apr 27, 2012 - 11:41PM #5
rangerken
Posts: 16,408

I don't think the one state thing is nonsense at all. I don't favor it because I think I would result in the end of Israel as a western oriented, free, mostly secular state.


But while I oppose it, I do not think it is nonsense nor are those favor it nonsensical...just wrong in my opinion. and THAT we can argue about!


Ken

Libertarian, Conservative, Life member of the NRA and VFW
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3 years ago  ::  Apr 28, 2012 - 12:48AM #6
Miraj
Posts: 5,021

Your check's in the mail, Ken.


j/k Tongue Out


A One-State Solution for Israel and Palestine



George Bisharat, Professor, UC Hastings College of the Law



Posted: 04/10/2012 5:29 pm

The international community has struggled for two decades to navigate Israelis and Palestinians toward an oasis of peace and stability. Yet it is increasingly clear that this oasis -- the two-state solution, whereby each of the two peoples would exercise sovereignty within their own state -- is in fact a mirage that continually recedes into the distance, always remaining just beyond reach.

In fact, a genuinely sovereign Palestinian state will not be realized any time in the foreseeable future, and quite likely never will be. The obstacles to meaningful Palestinian statehood are constantly mounting, most tangibly in the form of Israel's illegal settlements in the West Bank and East Jerusalem. Some 600,000 Jewish settlers now reside there -- three times as many as at the beginning of the Oslo peace process in 1993, and their numbers are growing rapidly.


. . .


Not all support for a single state emanates from progressive thinkers, however. Members of Israel's right wing are also beginning to seriously mull the advantages of a single state: no borders would have to be drawn, Jerusalem would remain undivided, and Jewish settlements in East Jerusalem and the West Bank -- at least if desegregated -- could remain where they are. Current Knesset speaker Reuven Rivlin, for example, stated in a 2010 interview in the Israeli newspaper Haaretz: "I would rather Palestinians as citizens of this country over dividing the land up." He further advocated "true partnership" between Jews and Palestinians and relations based on mutual respect and absolute equality.



Continued at the headline link.
Disclaimer: The opinions of this member are not primarily informed by western ethnocentric paradigms, stereotypes rooted in anti-Muslim/Islam hysteria, "Israel can do no wrong" intransigence, or the perceived need to protect the Judeo-Christian world from invading foreign religions and legal concepts.  By expressing such views, no inherent attempt is being made to derail or hijack threads, but that may be the result.  The result is not the responsibility of this member.


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3 years ago  ::  Apr 28, 2012 - 1:18AM #7
habesor
Posts: 5,802

In my opinion, it is a bit odd talking about a one state solution  without specifying a solution for what. If it is the solution for ending the continued existence of the Jewish State of Israel, then instituting a one state solution will most likely be successful. But there is nothing about a one state solution that would lead to a conclusion that it is a solution for the conflict. Indeed, nearly everywhere that one-state solutions have been in place, they almost invariably end in civil war and a great deal of bloodshed. This is the case with Iraq, Sudan, Yugoslavia, Georgia, Chechnya and other examples. So, the one-staters have to do more than just assert that their proposal will end the conflict as there is nothing in the proposal that automatically leads to that result. They will have to be very clear about this if they expect the average Israeli not to believe that a one-state solution is nothing more than the continuation of the war to destroy the State of Israel by other means.


Habesor 

Habesor
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3 years ago  ::  Apr 28, 2012 - 2:48PM #8
BDboy
Posts: 6,280

Apr 28, 2012 -- 1:18AM, habesor wrote:


In my opinion, it is a bit odd talking about a one state solution  without specifying a solution for what. If it is the solution for ending the continued existence of the Jewish State of Israel, then instituting a one state solution will most likely be successful. But there is nothing about a one state solution that would lead to a conclusion that it is a solution for the conflict. Indeed, nearly everywhere that one-state solutions have been in place, they almost invariably end in civil war and a great deal of bloodshed. This is the case with Iraq, Sudan, Yugoslavia, Georgia, Chechnya and other examples. So, the one-staters have to do more than just assert that their proposal will end the conflict as there is nothing in the proposal that automatically leads to that result. They will have to be very clear about this if they expect the average Israeli not to believe that a one-state solution is nothing more than the continuation of the war to destroy the State of Israel by other means.


Habesor 




 


>>>>>>>> One state solution has the potential to solve major issues between cousins!!


Let us see how far we go with it.

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3 years ago  ::  Apr 28, 2012 - 5:24PM #9
rocketjsquirell
Posts: 16,771

BDboy


It is going no where because no one who actually supports the national rights of the Jewish people or Israel would support it and no one who is honest about their intentions on the Arab side would either.  The only ones who support the non solution of one state are those who believe that doing so will crush the national aspirations and identity of the other side. There is absolutely not one bit of good faith in the one state solution proposal.   

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3 years ago  ::  Apr 28, 2012 - 6:01PM #10
rocketjsquirell
Posts: 16,771

Although it should not need repeating, here is yet another explanation as to why the world needs a Jewish state and why Jews need the Jewish State and why no one is going to convince Israeli Jews to simply give away the Jewish State.



Tell me about the future of the Jews
04/25/2012 18:25   By DANIEL GORDIS
A Dose of Nuance: The simple but often overlooked truth is that what has made this difference for Jews world over is the State of Israel.

. . .

Now fast-forward 66 years, to 2012.

Where do we find ourselves today? Jewish life in Europe, while facing renewed anti-Semitism in some places, is coming back to life. Berlin is one of the fastest growing Jewish communities in the world. There are Jewish cultural festivals in Poland (though staged largely by non-Jews, since there are few Jews left). In Budapest and Prague, Jewish museums, kosher restaurants and synagogues abound. Soviet Jews are largely out, and those who remain have synagogues, schools, camps and community centers. And across the ocean, the success and vibrancy of American Jewish life is legendary.

There was no way to expect any of this in 1946, no reason to even imagine it.

How did it happen? The simple but often overlooked truth is that what has made this difference for Jews world over is the State of Israel.
. . .
Unlike the Tibetans (or Chechnyans or Basques, to name just a few), Jews were no longer tiptoeing around the world, waiting to see what the world had in store for them.

The re-creation of the Jewish state has changed not only how the world sees the Jews, but how the Jews see themselves.

The days of “We looked like grasshoppers to ourselves, and so we appeared to them” (Num. 13:33) are gone, and the reason is the State of Israel.
. . .
But let us remember this, nevertheless: it is far too easy to lose sight of what we have accomplished. Sixty-six years ago, no sane, level-headed person could have imagined that we would have what we have. A language brought back to life, and bookstores filled with hundreds of linear feet of books in a language that just a century ago almost no one spoke. More people studying Torah now than there were in Europe at its height. An economic engine that is the envy of many supposedly more established countries. A democracy fashioned by immigrants, most of whom had never lived in a functioning democracy. Cutting-edge health care. An army that keeps us so safe, we go days on end without even thinking about our enemies.

That’s worth remembering in the midst of the attacks on us, from the international community as well as from Jews.

There’s much to repair, and too often, we fail to meet the standards we’ve set for ourselves. All true, and they demand our continued attention, but at the same time, we dare not lose sight of what we’ve built. To borrow the phrase from Virginia Slims, “we’ve come a long way, baby.”

The Jews have a future because the Jews have a state.

. . .
full article:
www.jpost.com/Magazine/Opinion/Article.a...

It is those who wish to end the future for Jews  and those to foolish to know better who support the so called One State Solution, no one else.

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