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Switch to Forum Live View Why half of us don't pay income tax
2 years ago  ::  Apr 26, 2012 - 5:22PM #1
Druac
Posts: 11,831
This article explains it well enough that I can actually understand it :)

money.cnn.com/2012/04/26/pf/taxes/income...



Intentionally or not, Congress set it up this way.


Over the years, lawmakers have increased the number of non-payers by enacting reams of tax breaks -- such as tax credits for work, kids and education. And the Bush tax cuts, first passed more than a decade ago, expanded many of them.


Then lawmakers approved temporary tax breaks after the 2008 financial crisis to stimulate the economy, and that expanded the rolls even more, said Robert Greenstein, president of the liberal Center on Budget and Policy Priorities.


The Tax Policy Center estimates that for tax year 2011, 46% of households will end up owing nothing in federal income taxes.


The percentage was closer to 40% before the recession, Greenstein said.





But if payroll taxes are counted, the number of non-payer households drops precipitously -- to an estimated 18% in 2011.


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2 years ago  ::  Apr 27, 2012 - 8:24AM #2
Girlchristian
Posts: 11,243

This is why I get annoyed when folks claim the "rich" aren't paying their fair share. NONE of us are paying our fair share in taxes and we all have to start doing so if we want to get out of the mess we're in, but there isn't a politician out there, except maybe Ryan whose plan I don't fully agree with, with the balls to say that to Americans.

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 27, 2012 - 8:59AM #3
Bodean
Posts: 9,503

Apr 27, 2012 -- 8:24AM, Girlchristian wrote:


This is why I get annoyed when folks claim the "rich" aren't paying their fair share. NONE of us are paying our fair share in taxes and we all have to start doing so if we want to get out of the mess we're in, but there isn't a politician out there, except maybe Ryan whose plan I don't fully agree with, with the balls to say that to Americans.





In the Left of Center sphere ... "fair share" .. means that the rich aren't paying enough, and the poor are not receiving enough via the EIC.


This whole debate is framed in a "hate the rich" mentatlity.

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 27, 2012 - 9:19AM #4
TENAC
Posts: 26,118

Apr 27, 2012 -- 8:24AM, Girlchristian wrote:


This is why I get annoyed when folks claim the "rich" aren't paying their fair share. NONE of us are paying our fair share in taxes and we all have to start doing so if we want to get out of the mess we're in, but there isn't a politician out there, except maybe Ryan whose plan I don't fully agree with, with the balls to say that to Americans.




So if NONE of us are paying our fair share, what exactly do you propose?


Have you considered that the Fed Govtis taking MORE than its "fair share?"



Any man can count the seeds in an apple....
.......but only God can count the apples in the seeds.
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 27, 2012 - 9:42AM #5
Girlchristian
Posts: 11,243

Apr 27, 2012 -- 9:19AM, TENAC wrote:


Apr 27, 2012 -- 8:24AM, Girlchristian wrote:


This is why I get annoyed when folks claim the "rich" aren't paying their fair share. NONE of us are paying our fair share in taxes and we all have to start doing so if we want to get out of the mess we're in, but there isn't a politician out there, except maybe Ryan whose plan I don't fully agree with, with the balls to say that to Americans.




So if NONE of us are paying our fair share, what exactly do you propose?


Have you considered that the Fed Govtis taking MORE than its "fair share?"



 




Sure it is and that also needs to be fixed, but I'm not like you and other conservatives that think we should cut all social and federal programs completely and just let people fend for themselves even if that means they're dying on the streets. There has to be a balance of good spending and the right collection of taxes. If you're in the 25% tax bracket, but because of tax breaks only pay 9% then are you really paying your fair share? If you're in the 15% tax bracket, but pay nothing because of tax breaks then are you really paying your fair share?

"No matter how dark the moment, love and hope are always possible." George Chakiris

“For those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who don't believe, no proof is possible.” Stuart Chase
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 27, 2012 - 10:00AM #6
TENAC
Posts: 26,118

Apr 27, 2012 -- 9:42AM, Girlchristian wrote:


Apr 27, 2012 -- 9:19AM, TENAC wrote:


Apr 27, 2012 -- 8:24AM, Girlchristian wrote:


This is why I get annoyed when folks claim the "rich" aren't paying their fair share. NONE of us are paying our fair share in taxes and we all have to start doing so if we want to get out of the mess we're in, but there isn't a politician out there, except maybe Ryan whose plan I don't fully agree with, with the balls to say that to Americans.




So if NONE of us are paying our fair share, what exactly do you propose?


Have you considered that the Fed Govtis taking MORE than its "fair share?"



 




Sure it is and that also needs to be fixed, but I'm not like you and other conservatives that think we should cut all social and federal programs completely and just let people fend for themselves even if that means they're dying on the streets. There has to be a balance of good spending and the right collection of taxes. If you're in the 25% tax bracket, but because of tax breaks only pay 9% then are you really paying your fair share? If you're in the 15% tax bracket, but pay nothing because of tax breaks then are you really paying your fair share?




See, always the negative!


Lets make it worse.


I am in the 33% bracket and paying 12%.  Horrible according to your premise, true?  Certainly not paying my fair share.


But if I am repsonsbile for 20 people paying in the 25% bracket (of which I am matching half), would you not rather I continue to pay the 12%?



See, this is where the Left has it so screwed up they cannot see out.  The would prefer to kill the golden goose laying the golden eggs.  Not everyone can be a goose, but everyone has the opportunity to be a goose.  Not everyone has the raw material to be a golden goose, but the golden eggs are out there.  One must seek and take their egg.



Now the 33% tax bracket guy paying 12%, he is going to attempt to get that down to 9% and will if offered.  The left would think he needs to take that 3% and hire two more employees so he can match their wage tax and increase the size of govt.


But no, the 33% guy takes his 3% and decides to buy a huge home, twice the size of his former domicile.  How greedy!!!  How ugly!  Oh the ugly American!


Really?


The logging yard got another huge order, the brick company receives the corresponing order, 12 different subcontractors are bidding to do the framing, bricking, plumbing, electrical, cable, floors, cabinets, counters, drywall, painting, fixtures, and so on and so on.


And guess what?  All these people work for someone who is matching their taxes to pay in to fund all the liberals govt programs they are so fond of.


Liberals dont think.  Period.  End of discussion.



This is as good a place as any to insert this truism:




Revenue is NOT the problem.


SPENDING is the problem, see barrack obama 2008-2012.

Any man can count the seeds in an apple....
.......but only God can count the apples in the seeds.
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 27, 2012 - 10:20AM #7
Cesmom
Posts: 4,845

Apr 27, 2012 -- 10:00AM, TENAC wrote:


Liberals dont think.  Period.  End of discussion.



This is as good a place as any to insert this truism:




Revenue is NOT the problem.


SPENDING is the problem, see barrack obama 2008-2012.




Liberals don't think and conservatives do...interesting.  


Spending is definitely a problem, but if you talk to a conservative, it's "cut spending and damn the consequences".  Yes, there are people who need to work that don't work, and creating jobs is obviously important, but there will always be a need for social programs.  There will always be those who genuinely need help to survive.  There will always be kids who have little hope of a decent future without the benefit of a little 'government intervention'.  To talk to a conservative, you would think this problem is magically going to go away on its own.  


Oh, and you overlook the rich liberals out there who could exist quite well without conservatives. 

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 27, 2012 - 10:27AM #8
Bodean
Posts: 9,503

Apr 27, 2012 -- 9:42AM, Girlchristian wrote:


Sure it is and that also needs to be fixed, but I'm not like you and other conservatives that think we should cut all social and federal programs completely and just let people fend for themselves even if that means they're dying on the streets. There has to be a balance of good spending and the right collection of taxes.





GC .. I can't believe you stooped to that level! .. I mean .. as if it were true .. which it is not!!


Even I, a Libertarian, who probably comes closest to this false assumption, do not advocate cutting all social federal programs completely while people die in the streets!  That's rediculous, and I know of no one who'd advocate it.


There's a difference in an "entitlement" .. and a "safety net".


I mean ... do we really need to spend 8 Billion on free cell phones for the poor??  [ www.marketwire.com/press-release/Everybo... ]Are cell phones now right up there with Healthcare and Retirement??  And that's just one example ... there are Billions of Dollars more of these types of examples.

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 27, 2012 - 10:31AM #9
TENAC
Posts: 26,118

Apr 27, 2012 -- 10:20AM, Cesmom wrote:


Apr 27, 2012 -- 10:00AM, TENAC wrote:


Liberals dont think.  Period.  End of discussion.



This is as good a place as any to insert this truism:




Revenue is NOT the problem.


SPENDING is the problem, see barrack obama 2008-2012.




Liberals don't think and conservatives do...interesting.  


Spending is definitely a problem, but if you talk to a conservative, it's "cut spending and damn the consequences".  Well we have yet to cut spending, and we are about damned, wouldnt you say? Which consequencs would be worse to continue this spending or cut spending in a huge way?  Rein in the bloated Fed Govt?    Yes, there are people who need to work that don't work, and creating jobs is obviously important, but there will always be a need for social programs.  Should half the population of the US be receiving a govt stipend?  There will always be those who genuinely need help to survive Always the same people? .  There will always be kids who have little hope of a decent future without the benefit of a little 'government intervention'. Totally disagree.  There is evidence everyday of kids coming from nothing to something.  Not everyone can, but most I read about didnt get govt help to do so.   To talk to a conservative, you would think this problem is magically going to go away on its own.  Absolutely.


Oh, and you overlook the rich liberals out there who could exist quite well without conservatives. 


Only for a while.  Once they began to see their principle affected, it has a strange effect on liberals.  It makes them conservative. 


At the end of the day, if obama is reelected and this country continues to find its way to the bottom of the crapper, we will ALL be conservatives.




We are at the point now where the govt (this adminstration particularly) not only LIE to us, but know they are lying and they know WE know they are lying and we are beginning to develop an acceptance to it.




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Any man can count the seeds in an apple....
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 27, 2012 - 10:35AM #10
Girlchristian
Posts: 11,243

Apr 27, 2012 -- 10:27AM, Bodean wrote:


Apr 27, 2012 -- 9:42AM, Girlchristian wrote:


Sure it is and that also needs to be fixed, but I'm not like you and other conservatives that think we should cut all social and federal programs completely and just let people fend for themselves even if that means they're dying on the streets. There has to be a balance of good spending and the right collection of taxes.





GC .. I can't believe you stooped to that level! .. I mean .. as if it were true .. which it is not!!


Even I, a Libertarian, who probably comes closest to this false assumption, do not advocate cutting all social federal programs completely while people die in the streets!  That's rediculous, and I know of no one who'd advocate it.


I wasn't talking about you, but I personally know three conservatives that do advocate ending all social programs and when I point out that people would die and especially children their answer is "so what, I shouldn't have to pay for them." We have conservatives on this board that think welfare should be cut off even if that means children would suffer, which is an extreme view. You don't feel that way and I don't, but there are conservatives out there that do.


There's a difference in an "entitlement" .. and a "safety net".


Completely agreee.


I mean ... do we really need to spend 8 Billion on free cell phones for the poor??  [ www.marketwire.com/press-release/Everybo... ]Are cell phones now right up there with Healthcare and Retirement??  And that's just one example ... there are Billions of Dollars more of these types of examples.


No, cell phones aren't needed, but proposals like forced sterilization for welfare recipients  or refusing to give more welfare if a recipient has another child while on welfare (an idea proposed by a conservative here) would be more in line with what I'm talking about.





"No matter how dark the moment, love and hope are always possible." George Chakiris

“For those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who don't believe, no proof is possible.” Stuart Chase
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