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Switch to Forum Live View Why half of us don't pay income tax
2 years ago  ::  Apr 28, 2012 - 12:34PM #41
amcolph
Posts: 17,536

Apr 28, 2012 -- 12:08PM, TENAC wrote:


 


Would that be tax breaks for equipment?  R & D?



And subsidies, bailouts, etc.  Some of those kinds of things might turn out to be useful public policies if carefully restructured, but just like social programs they all ought to be revisited. 


I mean I could get behind that.  Strip all spending, subsidies, tax breaks out of the federal budget and rebuild it from the ground up beginning with the military.




Exactly.  There is no reason to limit scrutiny to only the social programs.  Of course, nobody wants their own ox gored, but I think you would be surprised at the amount of resistance on the Left to cutting social programs which is due to the perception that the Right wants to do just that.

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 28, 2012 - 12:52PM #42
TENAC
Posts: 26,157

Apr 28, 2012 -- 12:34PM, amcolph wrote:


Apr 28, 2012 -- 12:08PM, TENAC wrote:


 


Would that be tax breaks for equipment?  R & D?



And subsidies, bailouts, etc.  Some of those kinds of things might be useful public policies, but just like social programs they all ought to be revisited. 


I mean I could get behind that.  Strip all spending, subsidies, tax breaks out of the federal budget and rebuild it from the ground up beginning with the military.




Exactly.  There is no reason to limit scrutiny to just the social programs.




You have my blessing.


Essentially we are taking away congresses checkbook, regardless of constitituionality.  But I find it necessary. 


If we immediatly implemented that, had everyone pay 16-18% in income tax (income meaning all monies made or redeemed in a fiscal year with in the US proper or financial markets), period.  Corporate boards would pay taxes on corporate real earnings (not investment, but interest on vehicles of investment yes). 


This would also elminate tax policy driving social policy.


No home mortgage deduct.  No charitable (sorry churches) deduct. 



Am, we can toast to this one. 


Have I lost you?

Any man can count the seeds in an apple....
.......but only God can count the apples in the seeds.
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 28, 2012 - 1:10PM #43
amcolph
Posts: 17,536

Apr 28, 2012 -- 12:52PM, TENAC wrote:


 


Am, we can toast to this one. 


Have I lost you?




No.  I've always thought that one of the reasons our tax policy is so complex and unworkable is not that the government wants to take with one hand and give away with the other but that they want to take and give with the same hand.  If we decide we want to subsidize home ownership or agribusiness or something else we should do it overtly, not slide it into tax policy.

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 30, 2012 - 10:20AM #44
Jasr
Posts: 11,570

Apr 27, 2012 -- 5:58PM, TENAC wrote:


Apr 27, 2012 -- 5:26PM, Jasr wrote:


Apr 27, 2012 -- 2:18PM, SecondSonOfDavid wrote:


4.   All financial health on the national level depends on job growth.  All job growth comes from successful businesses.  All successful businesses are created and run by rich people.  Ergo, attempting to punish rich people chases them to places where they are not punished, and those countries benefit from their investment.




Bull.


My wife and I created a small business out of sweat and effort. We employed 10. We also indirectly employed many more through our purchase of materials and services in our community. We were not rich then, we were not rich while we ran it, and we certainly are not rich now. However the concern still exists, and our employees are still employed.


Some "rich people" make investments that result in the employment of Americans. But that is not the only way Americans are employed.


And plenty of rich people earn their "wealth" by moving money around, and producing nothing at all.


Some businesses...I would say many businesses...are started by people like ourselves who work for a few years out of our homes, then write a business plan and get financed. Our business was financed 100% by private investors. We paid back every penny.


In America middle class people can create jobs, either by starting their own businesses or by investing in mutual funds that aggregate their investments.


Your claim that only rich people create jobs is simplistic and condescending.


Apr 27, 2012 -- 2:18PM, SecondSonOfDavid wrote:


5.  Class warfare is immoral, stupid, and a fast road to poverty on a massive scale.




I agree...and I look forward to the day when the Republican toadies of the super-wealthy stop fighting class wars.




So you gave up and went to work for the government?





I have never worked for the government in my life.


And I did not "give up." We went seriously into debt keeping our child care center running so our employees would not lose their jobs and our customers would not lose their service.


When a not for profit agency stepped up to take it over we donated it.


I drive by it every day, and it is thriving.


We are not unique. Plenty of people in the middle class create opportunity for others...and care that that opportunity is sustained. You don't have to be rich to participate in the capitalist system in a positive way.

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 30, 2012 - 10:27AM #45
teilhard
Posts: 51,198

I agree ...


It's NOT True that our Economy DEPENDS upon (or BENEFITS from ... !!!) a huge Concentration of $$$ in the Hands of The Ultra-Wealthy Feudal OverLords ...


Apr 30, 2012 -- 10:20AM, Jasr wrote:


Apr 27, 2012 -- 5:58PM, TENAC wrote:


Apr 27, 2012 -- 5:26PM, Jasr wrote:


Apr 27, 2012 -- 2:18PM, SecondSonOfDavid wrote:


4.   All financial health on the national level depends on job growth.  All job growth comes from successful businesses.  All successful businesses are created and run by rich people.  Ergo, attempting to punish rich people chases them to places where they are not punished, and those countries benefit from their investment.




Bull.


My wife and I created a small business out of sweat and effort. We employed 10. We also indirectly employed many more through our purchase of materials and services in our community. We were not rich then, we were not rich while we ran it, and we certainly are not rich now. However the concern still exists, and our employees are still employed.


Some "rich people" make investments that result in the employment of Americans. But that is not the only way Americans are employed.


And plenty of rich people earn their "wealth" by moving money around, and producing nothing at all.


Some businesses...I would say many businesses...are started by people like ourselves who work for a few years out of our homes, then write a business plan and get financed. Our business was financed 100% by private investors. We paid back every penny.


In America middle class people can create jobs, either by starting their own businesses or by investing in mutual funds that aggregate their investments.


Your claim that only rich people create jobs is simplistic and condescending.


Apr 27, 2012 -- 2:18PM, SecondSonOfDavid wrote:


5.  Class warfare is immoral, stupid, and a fast road to poverty on a massive scale.




I agree...and I look forward to the day when the Republican toadies of the super-wealthy stop fighting class wars.




So you gave up and went to work for the government?





I have never worked for the government in my life.


And I did not "give up." We went seriously into debt keeping our child care center running so our employees would not lose their jobs and our customers would not lose their service.


When a not for profit agency stepped up to take it over we donated it.


I drive by it every day, and it is thriving.


We are not unique. Plenty of people in the middle class create opportunity for others...and care that that opportunity is sustained. You don't have to be rich to participate in the capitalist system in a positive way.





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2 years ago  ::  May 02, 2012 - 8:11AM #46
Bodean
Posts: 9,512

Apr 30, 2012 -- 10:27AM, teilhard wrote:


I agree ...


It's NOT True that our Economy DEPENDS upon (or BENEFITS from ... !!!) a huge Concentration of $$$ in the Hands of The Ultra-Wealthy Feudal OverLords ...


 





True ... the economy is not dependent on huge concentrations of $$$ in the hands of the ultra wealthy, but instead is manipulated to transfer wealth to the ultra wealthy.


The key is .. who is the "ultra wealthy"?


Leftists wrongly finger rich people like the Koch Bros, and other Corporate Moguls as the evil guys.  The real evil guys, however, are the bankers connected to the Federal Reserve, and this has been the truth since 1913.


The Federal Reserve precipitated the Boom of 1920, then caused the Great Recession of 1929, and then further contracted the money supply to precipitate the Great Depression, in order to install their cronies, like FDR and other Leftists in Government such that they could destroy the protections of the US Constitution [specifically, get rid of the 10th Amendment protections .. which FDR did].


Since then, the Federal Reserve has expanded and contracted the economy at will, for the sole purpose of extracting Trillions from the World Economy [including this last downturn from the housing bubble].  JFK vowed to destroy their monompoly ... he was shot 6 mo later. McFarrell ..[or something like that] was sounding the alarm bell in the 1932 ... mysteriously died of "food poisioning" a few months later.


Ron Paul should be glad he is not winning the GOP nomination .. he too has vowed to destroy the Federal Reserve.  He wouldn't even survive to see the General Election if he were actually nominated.

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2 years ago  ::  May 02, 2012 - 9:36AM #47
teilhard
Posts: 51,198

There is indeed among some Folks a significant Nostalgia for The Good Old Days of Feudalism ...

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2 years ago  ::  May 02, 2012 - 9:54AM #48
Bodean
Posts: 9,512

May 2, 2012 -- 9:36AM, teilhard wrote:


There is indeed among some Folks a significant Nostalgia for The Good Old Days of Feudalism ...





I'm not sure I'm following what you are saying here.


If you are saying the "feudalism" pre Federal Reserve, I'll have to disagree.


The true "Feudalism" is what exists today.  A bunch of "sheep" who go on bleeting about the merits of their ideologies, all the while being herded to the slaughter.


The Federal Reserve was the biggest Fraud perpetuated on the US ever.  It took three tries to get it to stick.  Jefferson destroyed the first attempt.  Jackson destroyed the second attempt.  Finally, a Wilson, a Democrat, caught up in the new "socialism" of Europe, and enamoured by the lure that "central planning" was a good thing, passed it into law, and it stuck.


FDR, and the "New Deal" gang ... also advocates of the new "central planning" approach, wrongly blamed Capitalism and Free Markets for the Crash of 29, and the depression that followed.  Leftists .. right here on Bnet .. and everywhere, still parrot the lies of the FDR, thinking that Capitalism was the problem.  Pure dupes.


The real culprit, was the creation of "central planning", ... medling with the economy through the Federal Reserve.  The "Roaring 20s" were a planned event.  The King Pins [insiders] knew this, and benefited early off the 67% increase in printed money supply.  The "crash" was also planned, and the King Pins, again, were well aware of what was about to happen, and moved all their leveraged profits into "cash" and Gold.  After the recession, because the "Leftists" needed a beatdown populace to usher in the new era of Larger Federal Control, they contracted the money supply further by 33%, pushing the recession into a depression.  This allowed FDR to serve for 3 terms, and usher in all kinds of "Big Government" schemes, which plays perfectly into the hands of the "Elite" who run the Federal Reserve.


 


As opposed to the Govenrment just "printing money" as is it's right, instead, Wilson handed over that responsibility to the Federal Reserve .. thus, today, the US Public "borrows" money from the Federal Reserve.   Insane!

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2 years ago  ::  May 02, 2012 - 11:19AM #49
amcolph
Posts: 17,536

May 2, 2012 -- 9:54AM, Bodean wrote:


 ...thinking that Capitalism was the problem. 




Capitalism is not the problem.  In fact, we ought to try it in this country.  Too bad neither those on the Left nor those on the Right are interested in it.


The Right wants corporate feudalism; the Left wants social democracy.  On the whole, I favor the Left by a slight margin as being more favorable to free enterprise, but really it's a toss-up

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2 years ago  ::  May 02, 2012 - 11:39AM #50
Bodean
Posts: 9,512

May 2, 2012 -- 11:19AM, amcolph wrote:


May 2, 2012 -- 9:54AM, Bodean wrote:


 ...thinking that Capitalism was the problem. 




Capitalism is not the problem.  In fact, we ought to try it in this country.  Too bad neither those on the Left nor those on the Right are interested in it.


The Right wants corporate feudalism; the Left wants social democracy.  On the whole, I favor the Left by a slight margin as being more favorable to free enterprise, but really it's a toss-up





On the whole, I favor neither ... in fact .. I hate them all!!!!


They Both favor keeping the Federal Reserve in power over our money.  They both still support Centralized Planning .... which has proven time and again since 1913 to be a complete and total failure.

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