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Switch to Forum Live View Why half of us don't pay income tax
2 years ago  ::  Apr 27, 2012 - 5:54PM #31
TENAC
Posts: 26,583

Apr 27, 2012 -- 4:50PM, Hatman wrote:

The funny thing about this debate is that---unless you actually handed over gold or silver to the I.nfernal R.epresentatives of S.atan---NO ONE has actually "paid" any taxes at all, ever since the imposition of debt-notes, anyhow. FRN's are debt-notes, evidence of the national debt, but no one can actually "pay" for anything with them. Legally-speaking, what you can do with them is "discharge debt," to wit: "There is a distinction between a 'debt discharged' and a debt 'paid'. When discharged, the debt still exists though divested of it's charter as a legal obligation; during the operation of the discharge, something of the original vitality of the debt continues to exist, which may be transferred, even though the transferee takes it subject to it's disability incident to the discharge." -- Stanek vs. White, 172 Minn.390, 215 N.W. 784 But i found a few other citations which were quite relevant to this discussion, imo: "No pecuniary consideration is more urgent, than the regular redemption and discharge of the public debt: on none can delay be more injurious, or an economy of time more valuable." --George Washington, Message to the House of Representatives, 3 December 1793 Now, why would "father of the country" G. Washington say that, do you think? Did he realize that ancient principle "debt = slavery," do you think? Then there's this, too: "Most unquestionably there is no legal tender, and there can be no legal tender, in this country, under the authority of this government or any other, but gold and silver, either the coinage of our own mints, or foreign coins, at rates regulated by congress. This is a constitutional principle, perfectly plain, and of the very highest importance. The states are expressly prohibited from making anything but gold and silver a tender in payment of debts; and although no such express prohibition is applied to congress, yet as congress has no power granted to it, in this respect, but to coin money and to regulate the value of foreign coins, it clearly has no power to substitute paper, or anything else, for coin, as a tender in payment of debts and in discharge of contracts. Congress has exercised this power, fully, in both its branches. It has coined money, and still coins it; it has regulated the value of foreign coins, and still regulates their value. The legal tender, therefore, the constitutional standard of value, is established and cannot be overthrown. To overthrow it, would shake the whole system. The constitutional tender is the thing to be preserved, and it ought to be preserved sacredly, under all circumstances." - Daniel Webster, 1836 But now, "everyone" accepts that FRN's ARE "money," when they are but evidence of debt, and the enslavement that accompanies such debt, e.g. "The rich rule over the poor, and the borrower is the slave of the lender." ~Proverbs With goodwill to all the People(except Oathbreakers)- Hatman



The idea of funding and paying for everything in Monopoly money just keeps it neat.

Any man can count the seeds in an apple....
.......but only God can count the apples in the seeds.
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 27, 2012 - 5:58PM #32
TENAC
Posts: 26,583

Apr 27, 2012 -- 5:26PM, Jasr wrote:


Apr 27, 2012 -- 2:18PM, SecondSonOfDavid wrote:


4.   All financial health on the national level depends on job growth.  All job growth comes from successful businesses.  All successful businesses are created and run by rich people.  Ergo, attempting to punish rich people chases them to places where they are not punished, and those countries benefit from their investment.




Bull.


My wife and I created a small business out of sweat and effort. We employed 10. We also indirectly employed many more through our purchase of materials and services in our community. We were not rich then, we were not rich while we ran it, and we certainly are not rich now. However the concern still exists, and our employees are still employed.


Some "rich people" make investments that result in the employment of Americans. But that is not the only way Americans are employed.


And plenty of rich people earn their "wealth" by moving money around, and producing nothing at all.


Some businesses...I would say many businesses...are started by people like ourselves who work for a few years out of our homes, then write a business plan and get financed. Our business was financed 100% by private investors. We paid back every penny.


In America middle class people can create jobs, either by starting their own businesses or by investing in mutual funds that aggregate their investments.


Your claim that only rich people create jobs is simplistic and condescending.


Apr 27, 2012 -- 2:18PM, SecondSonOfDavid wrote:


5.  Class warfare is immoral, stupid, and a fast road to poverty on a massive scale.




I agree...and I look forward to the day when the Republican toadies of the super-wealthy stop fighting class wars.




So you gave up and went to work for the government?

Any man can count the seeds in an apple....
.......but only God can count the apples in the seeds.
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 27, 2012 - 6:00PM #33
teilhard
Posts: 51,394

The Ultra-Wealthy Feudal OverLords "don't pay Income Taxes" because they don't WANT to pay them  and so have arranged that THEY don't HAVE to pay ...

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 27, 2012 - 7:44PM #34
Druac
Posts: 12,127

Apr 27, 2012 -- 10:57AM, amcolph wrote:


Apr 27, 2012 -- 10:43AM, TENAC wrote:


 


Put me down as a conservative that believes we should completely cut out every social program and reload.



Why just social programs?  Why not imperialistic foreign wars as well?  Why not corporate welfare?


 



 




+ 1


Bingo! I'm for slash & burn if it is SYSTEM WIDE...from the VERY top to the VERY bottom.

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 27, 2012 - 8:12PM #35
TENAC
Posts: 26,583

Apr 27, 2012 -- 7:44PM, Druac wrote:


Apr 27, 2012 -- 10:57AM, amcolph wrote:


Apr 27, 2012 -- 10:43AM, TENAC wrote:


 


Put me down as a conservative that believes we should completely cut out every social program and reload.



Why just social programs?  Why not imperialistic foreign wars as well?  Why not corporate welfare?


 



 




+ 1


Bingo! I'm for slash & burn if it is SYSTEM WIDE...from the VERY top to the VERY bottom.




Define corporate welfare.


Three martini lunch or R&D?  There the same to the Left.

Any man can count the seeds in an apple....
.......but only God can count the apples in the seeds.
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 28, 2012 - 12:42AM #36
Cesmom
Posts: 5,133

Apr 27, 2012 -- 2:46PM, Girlchristian wrote:


At what point are we supposed to say you get $X as a safety net, but you're expected to also save for your own needs? We don't do that now if people are getting more than they paid in.


Unless you're mentally or physically handicapped/disabled, if you spend your entire life only making $20k/year then that is your problem and it does (like it or not) denote a lack of motivation (not intelligence...those with lower intellectual capabilities can still earn more than that).




I used to think that, too, but over the years, I've met enough people with lower intellectual capabilities to know that they are just happy to have any job.  We have a woman in our office who has limited intellectual capabilities.  She shows up on time every day.  She does her job to the best of her ability and works hard.  She's been with the company for 40 years, and she will never, ever make as much as myself or my other co-workers.  That's because she offers absolutely no skill that's not easily replacable.  There are definitely people out there who are working to their full capacity and live close to poverty level anyway.  Lack of advancement does not necessarily denote lack of motivation.

Our need to learn should always outweigh our need to be right

It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.

More people would learn from their mistakes if they weren't so busy denying them.
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 28, 2012 - 12:47AM #37
Cesmom
Posts: 5,133

Apr 27, 2012 -- 3:55PM, SecondSonOfDavid wrote:


Apr 27, 2012 -- 2:24PM, Cesmom wrote:



So, in your perfect world, the less intelligent and less talented live on the streets and eat cat food.  Sweet...I wonder where anyone ever got the idea that a conservative could be heartless?  Wow.



Funny, for all your wailing and hate, I still don't feel guilty.


Maybe it's because in my experience, intelligence and talent do not equate to wealth.  Don't know if you ever checked, but MENSA members do not make more than most ordinary folks.


Hard work, confidence, and learning to grow are what have helped me provide for my family, and are the building blocks for every successful career I have ever heard of.




Apr 27, 2012 -- 2:24PM, Cesmom wrote:


I never suggested punishing rich people.  




Oh yes you did.  You want rich people to pay more taxes, even after knowing that people making more than 250k a year pay 90%+ of all tax revenues received from individuals.  By definition, you want to punish people for being able to make money.


At least be honest about that, you're not fooling anyone but yourself.



Apr 27, 2012 -- 2:24PM, Cesmom wrote:


Got any suggestions on how we can get the rich 'job creators' to create jobs that allow people to actually afford their rent?





What planet do you live on?  Here on planet Earth, the value of anything depends on what someone is willing to spend on it.   I grew up in a home without TV at times, with one car which my dad drove to/from work, no AC until I was 8 years old, and we never had Cable, a home computer or cell phones.  


My dad and I paid for my college, without a dime from the government to help.  I started working with absolutely no money in the bank and no friends to help me get in the door.   I found my jobs, worked my butt off to do the job right, and worked my way up.  When I earned my MBA, I paid for the degree on my own and worked full-time while going to school at night, and on weekends.  I never blamed anyone else for my situation, and I never demanded some rich man give me money just because I was in a tough spot. 


I have worked for absolutely everything I earned, and no one but me has the right to tell me what to do with my money.  I pay more taxes than 70% of Americans, I pay all of my bills on time and NEVER carry a balance.  That's what all honest Americans do.


Anyone else can do the same, and that is my expectation of anyone sound of mind and body, which  - on a legal level at least - includes you




I have worked for absolutely everything I've ever earned as well.  I pay all my bills on time and pay more taxes than most Americans.  Clearly, having earned an MBA, you have at least as much, if not more intellectual potential as the average person, as do I.  Don't act like some haven't been blessed with more potential than others.  It's simply not true.

Our need to learn should always outweigh our need to be right

It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.

More people would learn from their mistakes if they weren't so busy denying them.
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 28, 2012 - 9:49AM #38
Girlchristian
Posts: 11,386

Apr 28, 2012 -- 12:42AM, Cesmom wrote:


Apr 27, 2012 -- 2:46PM, Girlchristian wrote:


At what point are we supposed to say you get $X as a safety net, but you're expected to also save for your own needs? We don't do that now if people are getting more than they paid in.


Unless you're mentally or physically handicapped/disabled, if you spend your entire life only making $20k/year then that is your problem and it does (like it or not) denote a lack of motivation (not intelligence...those with lower intellectual capabilities can still earn more than that).




I used to think that, too, but over the years, I've met enough people with lower intellectual capabilities to know that they are just happy to have any job.  We have a woman in our office who has limited intellectual capabilities.  She shows up on time every day.  She does her job to the best of her ability and works hard.  She's been with the company for 40 years, and she will never, ever make as much as myself or my other co-workers.  That's because she offers absolutely no skill that's not easily replacable.  There are definitely people out there who are working to their full capacity and live close to poverty level anyway.  Lack of advancement does not necessarily denote lack of motivation.





I understand, I've worked with women like that, but they're typically also not the type that will even try to go to school or get a certificate or do anything to attempt to change that. Our receptionist was one of those, always wanted to make more, but was never willing to do what she had to do in order to gain the skills needed to do so. She had limited capabilities, but with some training and classes she still could have gone further, but she didn't. She made the choice to stay exactly where she was and as such, she has to figure out a way to live with that choice.

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 28, 2012 - 11:45AM #39
amcolph
Posts: 17,692

Apr 27, 2012 -- 8:12PM, TENAC wrote:


Apr 27, 2012 -- 7:44PM, Druac wrote:


Apr 27, 2012 -- 10:57AM, amcolph wrote:


Apr 27, 2012 -- 10:43AM, TENAC wrote:


 


Put me down as a conservative that believes we should completely cut out every social program and reload.



Why just social programs?  Why not imperialistic foreign wars as well?  Why not corporate welfare?


 



 




+ 1


Bingo! I'm for slash & burn if it is SYSTEM WIDE...from the VERY top to the VERY bottom.




Define corporate welfare.


Three martini lunch or R&D?  There the same to the Left.



No they're not.  You haven't succeeded in fooling the Left about that nearly as well as you have in fooling yourselves.


Corporate welfare is like individual welfare--an unearned payment from government.

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 28, 2012 - 12:08PM #40
TENAC
Posts: 26,583

Apr 28, 2012 -- 11:45AM, amcolph wrote:


Apr 27, 2012 -- 8:12PM, TENAC wrote:


Apr 27, 2012 -- 7:44PM, Druac wrote:


Apr 27, 2012 -- 10:57AM, amcolph wrote:


Apr 27, 2012 -- 10:43AM, TENAC wrote:


 


Put me down as a conservative that believes we should completely cut out every social program and reload.



Why just social programs?  Why not imperialistic foreign wars as well?  Why not corporate welfare?


 



 




+ 1


Bingo! I'm for slash & burn if it is SYSTEM WIDE...from the VERY top to the VERY bottom.




Define corporate welfare.


Three martini lunch or R&D?  There the same to the Left.



No they're not.  You haven't succeeded in fooling the Left about that nearly as well as you have in fooling yourselves.


Corporate welfare is like individual welfare--an unearned payment from government.




Would that be tax breaks for equipment?  R & D?


I mean I could get behind that.  Strip all spending, subsidies, tax breaks out of the federal budget and rebuild it from the ground up beginning with the military.

Any man can count the seeds in an apple....
.......but only God can count the apples in the seeds.
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