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Switch to Forum Live View Carter Slates US Warmongers
2 years ago  ::  Apr 25, 2012 - 6:42PM #1
solfeggio
Posts: 8,933

Earlier this week, former president Jimmy Carter opened the three-day international World Summit of Nobel Peace Laureates in Chicago.  He challenged young people to stand up against unnecessary wars, and he held the U.S. government accountable for making pre-emptive strikes.

articles.chicagotribune.com/2012-04-24/n... 

In his speech, Carter noted that 'For the last 60 years, our country has been almost constantly at war.  Now we are contemplating going to war again, perhaps in Iran.'   He said that the U.S. has a responsibility to set a standard for others to follow, but at least in some cases, the US has engaged in 'completely unnecessary' wars. 

Mikhail Gorbachev, who won the Nobel Peace Prize in 1990, said that people have been asking him what should be done to improve America.  'They give the signal that America does need advice.  America does need to listen to what people are saying throughout the world.'

(Now that Mr. Carter has dared to criticise his own country's policies, does this mean that he'll be sent to Gitmo?)  

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 25, 2012 - 8:57PM #2
TemplarS
Posts: 6,580

Mr. Carter is right, of course, but he is not going to jail, as he no doubt would if he took a similar stance in many of the nations the US is criticized for standing up to.


As for Mr. Gorbachev, I would judge he might want to save his advice for those in his own homeland who corrupted the reforms he started with such promise.  


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2 years ago  ::  Apr 25, 2012 - 9:00PM #3
Fodaoson
Posts: 11,131

Since 1951 thus US has been at war of fighting somewhere . The only war without a justification was Iraq.  Vietnam was a military assistance to help an allied nation.( 1954 France then South Vietnam).  Korea was a UN Action to repeal an invasion. Lebanon, Granada  invasions were to rescue Americans caught in a civil war.    A little publicized fact of Panama and “Operation Just Cause”   is


On December 15, 1989, Noriega sought and was given by the legislature the title of chief executive officer of the government. The Noriega-led assembly declared that a state of war with the United States existed. The next day Panamanian soldiers killed an unarmed U.S. Marine officer dressed in civilian clothes.


Operation Desert Storm  was the Liberation of Kuwait and Afghanistan was to defeat Al Qaida. Iraq was supposedly about nonexistent WMDs; Inspectors had not found any. Dissenters  inside Iraq could not offer any evidence; The US Administration lied to start the Iraq war.


 

“I seldom make the mistake of arguing with people for whose opinions I have no respect.” Edward Gibbon
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 25, 2012 - 11:38PM #4
IDBC
Posts: 4,454

Howdy Solf


 


 


Apr 25, 2012 -- 6:42PM, solfeggio wrote:


Earlier this week, former president Jimmy Carter opened the three-day international World Summit of Nobel Peace Laureates in Chicago.  He challenged young people to stand up against unnecessary wars, and he held the U.S. government accountable for making pre-emptive strikes.

articles.chicagotribune.com/2012-04-24/n...  



I have a little problem with the title of the thread.  It is inaccurate and polemical. 


Former Pres. Carter did NOT STATE THAT THE U.S. was "Warmongers".  


What he DID STATE, according to the link you posted was:


"For the last 60 years, our country has been almost constantly at war. Now we are contemplating war against Iran."


He dd NOT STATE WHY  the U.S. was "contemplating" a war with Iran.


Former Pres. Carter did state


"We need to find a way to feed the starving children in North Korea and, at the same time, not exalt the leaders of North Korea,"


Former Pres. Carter did NOT STATE "THE WAY" to feed the starving children in North Korea AND  not exalt the leaders of North Korea". 


 Former Pres. Carter, winner of the Noble Prize For Peace DID STATE


""I'm not against all wars … but any war should begin only as a last resort and after every possible means of resolution (like sanctions)has been exhausted."


"While most laureates agreed that war should be a last resort, some opposed sanctions as a means of forcing countries, even North Korea, to change course on nuclear weapons. Embargoes, they said, tend to do more harm to those living under an oppressive regime than to the leaders."


I would agree that sanctions in the form of embargoes do tend to do more harm to those living under oppressive regimeS than to the leaders of the oppressive regimes.   Sodom Hussein did not suffer any harm from the sanctions and embargoes, the people under his oppressive regime did suffer harm.   Qadaffy did not suffer any harm from the sanctions and embargoes, the people under his oppressive regime did suffer harm. Assad of Syria is not  suffering from any harm from t the sanctions and embargoes, the people under his oppressive regime are suffering  harm from embargoes and sanctions. 


It appears to me that sanctions and embargoes do not work and cause the people to suffer. 


I do agree that the proliferation of nuclear does pose a threat to peace.  


However I have not heard any of  the Former Nobel Peace winners or anyone else for that matter state how to prevent the proliferation of nuclear weapons, either in North Korea, Iran, or anywhere else.

In his speech, Carter noted that 'For the last 60 years, our country has been almost constantly at war.  Now we are contemplating going to war again, perhaps in Iran.'   He said that the U.S. has a responsibility to set a standard for others to follow, but at least in some cases, the US has engaged in 'completely unnecessary' wars. 

Mikhail Gorbachev, who won the Nobel Peace Prize in 1990, said that people have been asking him what should be done to improve America.  'They give the signal that America does need advice.  America does need to listen to what people are saying throughout the world.'

(Now that Mr. Carter has dared to criticise his own country's policies, does this mean that he'll be sent to Gitmo?)  




editing only altered the format. RK

Moderated by rangerken on Apr 26, 2012 - 12:47AM
HAVE A THINKING DAY MAY REASON GUIDE YOU
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 26, 2012 - 1:09AM #5
solfeggio
Posts: 8,933

The U.S. was right to fight World War II, but the only other justifiable 20th century war, in my opinion, was Desert Storm to liberate Kuwait.  And that was a very short-term operation.

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 26, 2012 - 8:07AM #6
IDBC
Posts: 4,454

 


Howdy Solf


 


Apr 26, 2012 -- 1:09AM, solfeggio wrote:


The U.S. was right to fight World War II, but the only other justifiable 20th century war, in my opinion, was Desert Storm to liberate Kuwait.  And that was a very short-term operation.




I would strongly agree that the U.S. was "right"  to fight in W.W.II.  I am somewhat less certain that it was "right" for the U.S. to fight to liberate Kuwait. 


However that was not my objection.  


My objection is with the title you named the thread.  


Forrmer Pres. Carter did NOT state the the U.S. was a  WARMONGER. 


NEITHER  did any of the other Nobel Peace Prize winners.


That the U.S.  was in WWII is a statement of FACT.


Wether or not the U.S.  was "just" in fighting WWII is a statement of "opinion'.   It is a "value" statement.   As such it can be subject to "opinion".  


You CAN have differences of "opinions" on "values" such as "justice". 


You CANNOT have a difference of "opinon" on FACTS.  At least not in this particular case. 


 Do  you agree or disagree that neither former Pres. Carter, nor any of the other Nobel Peace Prize winners STATE THAT THE U.S. WAS A WARMONGER? 


In my previous posts I also posted about other....problems I had with the  link-article that YOU posted.  Problems which you have not commented on.  


 


 


 


 


 


 

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 26, 2012 - 6:32PM #7
solfeggio
Posts: 8,933

IDBC -


The title of this thread was not one that I made up myself.  As it happens, I took the title from the heading of the newspaper article about Carter's speech that appeared in our local daily newspaper.  And I paraphrased some of the content of that reporter's article as well.


The reason I did this was to show the Americans who might be looking at the thread how people in another country see Americans today.  Maybe Americans do not see themselves as warmongers, but unfortunately this is the impression many of us overseas are getting these days.


For instance, compared to other countries, the U.S. defence budget is enormous, and America is the world's top military spender.


www.commonsensedemocracy.com/2012/03/20/...


And, as we've seen in the news recently, money for the military comes from cutting social programmes like food stamps.


pulse.ncpolicywatch.org/2012/04/18/u-s-h...


 

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 26, 2012 - 6:44PM #8
solfeggio
Posts: 8,933

IDBC -


Now, regarding your questions about America's participation in WWII:


I think we can safely say that, had America not been drawn into that conflict (by the attack on Pearl Harbor and Hitler's subsequent declaring war on the U.S.), that war might have been won by the Axis powers.


America's enormous arms industry and huge numbers of men quickly recruited into the armed services played a vital role in defeating Germany and Japan.


It was a very close thing there for awhile.


So, I really don't think that saying that the U.S. was justified in fighting WWII is simply opinion.  Rather, I think it is provable fact.


I do not think that going into what was euphemistically known as the 'police action' in Korea in the early 1950s was justified because that was based on the American paranoia about Communism in those days.  And the war in Vietnam was fought because of those same fears.


This was during the Cold War, when Americans' fears of communism were the driving force behind U.S. foreign policy.


In the end, as history has proven, worries about communism were unjustified.

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 26, 2012 - 8:59PM #9
farragut
Posts: 3,939

"In the end, as history has proven, worries about communism were unjustified"


You seem to be assuming that had the USA and the free world just sat back and watched, the USSR would have gone the way it did.

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 26, 2012 - 9:26PM #10
Fodaoson
Posts: 11,131

Apr 26, 2012 -- 6:44PM, solfeggio wrote:


IDBC -


Now, regarding your questions about America's participation in WWII:


I think we can safely say that, had America not been drawn into that conflict (by the attack on Pearl Harbor and Hitler's subsequent declaring war on the U.S.), that war might have been won by the Axis powers.


America's enormous arms industry and huge numbers of men quickly recruited into the armed services played a vital role in defeating Germany and Japan.


It was a very close thing there for awhile.


So, I really don't think that saying that the U.S. was justified in fighting WWII is simply opinion.  Rather, I think it is provable fact.


I do not think that going into what was euphemistically known as the 'police action' in Korea in the early 1950s was justified because that was based on the American paranoia about Communism in those days.  And the war in Vietnam was fought because of those same fears.


This was during the Cold War, when Americans' fears of communism were the driving force behind U.S. foreign policy.


In the end, as history has proven, worries about communism were unjustified.




“In the end, as history has proven, worries about communism were unjustified”  History shows that worries were justified.  The countries that were under the Soviet sphere suffered. Recall the redevelopment of East verses west after WWII Soviet countries still had war rubble and poor economies when the Soviet Union collapsed.  West Germany was an Economic powers house, A democracy, East Germany a sickly, conquered dictatorship Look at countries that succumbed  to communism:  Repressed people, “reeducation”, gulags, Recall the massacres of South Korean as the North Korean moved South. The price of Communism was discovered in mass graves  as the UN punished the North Korean. Recall Pol Pot and Khmer Rouge and the killing fields. Read accounts of the North Vietnamese  read education and cleansing of the South after the fall of Saigon.  Look at Cuba under Communism


    The cost of  fighting the cold war  kept the Soviet Union for economic development.   The Free enterprise methods of the US fighting cold war helped with economic  and social  development in the US. Our defense budget supports a lot of technological development, Medical research and development and  infrastructure building*1  .  Gorbachev finally gave up on the cold war and told General Colin Powell” Gorbachev stopped, looked up, captured a thought and smiled. He looked at General Powell and said “You will have to find a new enemy.”.


The communist threat was real and justified. As with any issue Politicians milked it beyond truth.


*1(wiki)  The Federal-Aid Highway Act of 1956, popularly known as the National Interstate and Defense Highways Act (Public Law 84-627), was enacted on June 29, 1956, when Dwight D. Eisenhower signed the bill into law. With an original authorization of 25 billion dollars for the construction of 41,000 miles (66,000 km) of the Interstate Highway System supposedly over a 10-year period, it was the largest public works project in American history through that time.[1]


The money for the Interstate Highway and Defense Highways was handled in a Highway Trust Fund that paid for 90 percent of highway construction costs with the states required to pay the remaining 10 percent. It was expected that the money would be generated through new taxes on fuel, automobiles, trucks, and tires. As a matter of practice, the Federal portion of the cost of the Interstate Highway System has been paid for by taxes on gasoline and diesel fuel.

“I seldom make the mistake of arguing with people for whose opinions I have no respect.” Edward Gibbon
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