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3 years ago  ::  Apr 26, 2012 - 12:29PM #41
Miraj
Posts: 5,021

Apr 26, 2012 -- 12:20PM, LeahOne wrote:


Nobody asked me - but I'd like to ALSO be cleared of the 'Israel can do no wrong' slander.  In fact, I can't really think of anyone who's still posting on here who's expressed such a view. 


OK, there was the one guy a few years back who had a tag line suggesting the Muslim Arabs should leave Israel.  Which I think is *why* he's no longer posting here.....................


Pointing out the agendas of marxist or other ideologues is not 'excusing' Israeli misconduct:  it's simply trying to provide context and aid understanding. 


Anyway, there may actually be a poster who is so extreme - but I am not it, and I'd like that made clear because names can't really be named, can they.


I'd also add that I understand Miraj's negative response to being lumped in with anyone else....





They do exist or I wouldn't mention them.  Kinda funny though; I'm pigeonholed as supporting terrorism by some who don't want to be pigeonholed as non-critical of Israel.



editing for error in format. RK

Moderated by rangerken on Apr 26, 2012 - 03:57PM
Disclaimer: The opinions of this member are not primarily informed by western ethnocentric paradigms, stereotypes rooted in anti-Muslim/Islam hysteria, "Israel can do no wrong" intransigence, or the perceived need to protect the Judeo-Christian world from invading foreign religions and legal concepts.  By expressing such views, no inherent attempt is being made to derail or hijack threads, but that may be the result.  The result is not the responsibility of this member.


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3 years ago  ::  Apr 26, 2012 - 12:34PM #42
Miraj
Posts: 5,021

Apr 26, 2012 -- 12:23PM, LeahOne wrote:


PS:  Miraj, while you may fully believe you don't 'have a side' - I think that your tag about a 'single state solution' strongly suggests otherwise to most people.


Not 'accusing' anything here, just mentioning something which may be leading people in the wrong direction.





I'm proud of being for the one-state solution.  It's a peace movement indicative of the acceptance of the only goal worthy of an aspiring full democracy in the ME and a way to correct its corrupt history of theft and exploitation.  It's like being in the vanguard of the early South African liberation movement that corrected the errors of the original settlers.  I make no apologies for something I expect to be congratulated in the future for having the foresight to be a part of.

Disclaimer: The opinions of this member are not primarily informed by western ethnocentric paradigms, stereotypes rooted in anti-Muslim/Islam hysteria, "Israel can do no wrong" intransigence, or the perceived need to protect the Judeo-Christian world from invading foreign religions and legal concepts.  By expressing such views, no inherent attempt is being made to derail or hijack threads, but that may be the result.  The result is not the responsibility of this member.


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3 years ago  ::  Apr 26, 2012 - 2:20PM #43
vra
Posts: 6,407

Apr 26, 2012 -- 12:29PM, Miraj wrote:




They do exist or I wouldn't mention them.  Kinda funny though; I'm pigeonholed as supporting terrorism by someone (not Leah) who doesn't himself want to be pigeonholed as non-critical of Israel.




Miraj, what won't you do to try and win some sort of debate?  I did not say that you "supported terrorism", but what I did say is that I have never seen you condemn the actions of Hamas and Hezbollah in their attacking Israeli civilians, and that simply is true.  Now, maybe you did when I wasn't here, and that's a possiblity, but I said I haven't actually seen you do this.


Will you kindly report what I say accurately, and if you can't do so, then at least have the decency to refrain from commenting on my posts?

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3 years ago  ::  Apr 26, 2012 - 2:34PM #44
Miraj
Posts: 5,021

Apr 26, 2012 -- 2:20PM, vra wrote:


Apr 26, 2012 -- 12:29PM, Miraj wrote:




They do exist or I wouldn't mention them.  Kinda funny though; I'm pigeonholed as supporting terrorism by someone (not Leah) who doesn't himself want to be pigeonholed as non-critical of Israel.




Miraj, what won't you do to try and win some sort of debate?  I did not say that you "supported terrorism", but what I did say is that I have never seen you condemn the actions of Hamas and Hezbollah in their attacking Israeli civilians, and that simply is true.  Now, maybe you did when I wasn't here, and that's a possiblity, but I said I haven't actually seen you do this.


Will you kindly report what I say accurately, and if you can't do so, then at least have the decency to refrain from commenting on my posts?




I don't concern myself with "winning" here.  That would ruin anyone's mental health.


Despite repeated efforts to get me to talk about Hamas and their ilk, I don't, period.  So, you have never seen me support or criticise them.  I have my hands full being an Israeli criticising Israel. 

Disclaimer: The opinions of this member are not primarily informed by western ethnocentric paradigms, stereotypes rooted in anti-Muslim/Islam hysteria, "Israel can do no wrong" intransigence, or the perceived need to protect the Judeo-Christian world from invading foreign religions and legal concepts.  By expressing such views, no inherent attempt is being made to derail or hijack threads, but that may be the result.  The result is not the responsibility of this member.


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3 years ago  ::  Apr 26, 2012 - 11:46PM #45
habesor
Posts: 5,803

So Miraj,


When VRA said that you have never been seen on this forum being critical of any of the actions of Hamas  et al, you confirm VRA's observation to be a correct.


There are two more questions which should be asked:


Have you ever made statements on this forum critical of the PA or the PLO?


After being critical of supporters of Israel whose posts on this forum, you allege, contain no criticism of Israel, is it your practice to submit posts here with no criticism of the Palestinians?


Habesor



Habesor
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3 years ago  ::  Apr 27, 2012 - 12:19AM #46
Miraj
Posts: 5,021

Apr 26, 2012 -- 11:46PM, habesor wrote:


So Miraj,


When VRA said that you have never been seen on this forum being critical of any of the actions of Hamas  et al, you confirm VRA's observation to be a correct.


There are two more questions which should be asked:


Have you ever made statements on this forum critical of the PA or the PLO?


I don't discuss them either.


After being critical of supporters of Israel whose posts on this forum, you allege, contain no criticism of Israel, is it your practice to submit posts here with no criticism of the Palestinians?


I can discuss Palestinian citizens of Israel.  When they need criticism, I can give it.





Disclaimer: The opinions of this member are not primarily informed by western ethnocentric paradigms, stereotypes rooted in anti-Muslim/Islam hysteria, "Israel can do no wrong" intransigence, or the perceived need to protect the Judeo-Christian world from invading foreign religions and legal concepts.  By expressing such views, no inherent attempt is being made to derail or hijack threads, but that may be the result.  The result is not the responsibility of this member.


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3 years ago  ::  Apr 27, 2012 - 12:42AM #47
habesor
Posts: 5,803

So, Miraj, after complaining that pro-Israeli posters here never make any statements critical of Israel, it turns out that you never make any statements critical of the Palestinians. Is that correct?


Miraj,


Before I receive your answer to the above question, I think that it is only fair to show you where I am going with this. It seems to me that one flaw in  the discussion about the Arab-Israeli conflict is that there are some interlocutors who only want to talk about the flaws of one side of the conflict while ignoring the flaws of the other. As a consequence while we should (IMHO) be examining questions of international law, human rights and policy proposals designed to lead to peace between the disputants, we get discussions of flaws in Israeli democracy which ignore the absence of democracy in the Arab states, international law as it applies only to Israel and policy proposals which basically advocate victory of one side over the other. From experience I have come to the conclusion that such one-sided discussions serve only to aggravate the conflict rather than having a potential for alleviating it.


Though I get some emotional reward when puncturing the arguments of people taking one-sided anti-Israel stands on this conflict and "winning" one for my side, I cannot help but think that in a very important way, it is a big waste of time. There are people who are ruining their lives and being maimed and killed in this conflict. Looking at the sins of one side, as you apparently assert that you are doing, not only does not bring us any closer to ending this conflict but helps, in a very small way, to exacerbate it. As such Miraj, by refusing to talk about Hamas, Hisbollah or the PA, you are making yourself part of the problem rather than part of the solution.


Habesor


 

Habesor
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3 years ago  ::  Apr 27, 2012 - 1:49AM #48
Miraj
Posts: 5,021

Apr 27, 2012 -- 12:42AM, habesor wrote:


So, Miraj, after complaining that pro-Israeli posters here never make any statements critical of Israel, it turns out that you never make any statements critical of the Palestinians. Is that correct?


A majority of the participants here are critical of the Palestinians and other Arabs.  So many that they make it look easy.  My time is best spent on other things. And, I said that SOME, not all, pro-Israel posters never criticise Israel.  The majority do, but they are the more reasonable ones.


Miraj,


Before I receive your answer to the above question, I think that it is only fair to show you where I am going with this. It seems to me that one flaw in  the discussion about the Arab-Israeli conflict is that there are some interlocutors who only want to talk about the flaws of one side of the conflict while ignoring the flaws of the other. As a consequence while we should (IMHO) be examining questions of international law, human rights and policy proposals designed to lead to peace between the disputants, we get discussions of flaws in Israeli democracy which ignore the absence of democracy in the Arab states, international law as it applies only to Israel and policy proposals which basically advocate victory of one side over the other. From experience I have come to the conclusion that such one-sided discussions serve only to aggravate the conflict rather than having a potential for alleviating it.


It seems that any discussion of Israel devolves into a pretty exaggerated "but the Arabs are worse" deflection of any issue.  Discussions of any other ME country bores me because discussing them with people who haven't experienced them first hand, getting what they "know" second or third hand is a big waste of time for me.  Chances are that most people here have been to Israel at least once, but a scant few have been anywhere else in the ME.


Though I get some emotional reward when puncturing the arguments of people taking one-sided anti-Israel stands on this conflict and "winning" one for my side, I cannot help but think that in a very important way, it is a big waste of time. There are people who are ruining their lives and being maimed and killed in this conflict. Looking at the sins of one side, as you apparently assert that you are doing, not only does not bring us any closer to ending this conflict but helps, in a very small way, to exacerbate it. As such Miraj, by refusing to talk about Hamas, Hisbollah or the PA, you are making yourself part of the problem rather than part of the solution.


I must confess that I spend very little time with profoundly anti-Israel threads, other than to make sure no one is cursing or being personally insulting.  They make my head hurt, so I skim over them for the purpose of modding rather than peruse them, and rarely engage them.  


I feel no obligation to comment on Hamas, etc.  Like I said, so many do, and, for me, it's a lose-lose proposition.  I spent more than two decades dealing with substantive issues in the ME, so I did my time, occasionally still do, and, when I do, it counts for something.  I'm discerning about what subjects I comment on.  If the level of discourse here was more sophisticated, as it is for me IRL, I might be swayed to open up more, but the likelihood of that is slim to none.  I come here for fun, and pray that it will be. 





Disclaimer: The opinions of this member are not primarily informed by western ethnocentric paradigms, stereotypes rooted in anti-Muslim/Islam hysteria, "Israel can do no wrong" intransigence, or the perceived need to protect the Judeo-Christian world from invading foreign religions and legal concepts.  By expressing such views, no inherent attempt is being made to derail or hijack threads, but that may be the result.  The result is not the responsibility of this member.


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3 years ago  ::  Apr 27, 2012 - 12:07PM #49
BDboy
Posts: 6,301

Apr 26, 2012 -- 11:46PM, habesor wrote:


So Miraj,


When VRA said that you have never been seen on this forum being critical of any of the actions of Hamas  et al, you confirm VRA's observation to be a correct.


There are two more questions which should be asked:


Have you ever made statements on this forum critical of the PA or the PLO?


After being critical of supporters of Israel whose posts on this forum, you allege, contain no criticism of Israel, is it your practice to submit posts here with no criticism of the Palestinians?


Habesor






 


>>>>>>>>>> I have seen too many posts with this type of argument. Which leads of personal attacks.


Generally we discuss ISSUES here. I do not demand Rocket, Goldstein or Leah (And other well known Supporters of Israel) support "Libaration of Palestine"/human right of Palestinians or return of "Native population" to their lands of hundreds of years.


It takes two sides to have a meaningful discussion/debate. I express my support for existance of Israel many times. I praised Israeli press many times (And lamented the state of press in many Arab countries).


I do not feel it is morally right to support an occupation which looks pretty bad if you look into it.


Hamas and others feel it is their natural right to free their land. I do NOT support violence (And stated it openly many times). But if their aspiration is freedom(Which is the common pain of arabs in occupied land), it is hard to ignore their plight.


According to majority of world's population it is an immoral occupation and massive abuse of human rights. Too bad many Israelis and supporters of Israel cannot see it. That does not make such abuse Kosher/halal.


Lastly, to make this discussion information and enjoyable there are plenty of posters who exclusively taiks about Israel and Israelis. So I feel it is natural other people will discuss the other side of coin.


I bet you anything most people who are engaged in violence will leave such path if they see any light at the end of the tunnel. Too bad for last 60 years they have not seen any light. I do not blame ONLY Israel for this situation but as the invader, it bears moral responsibility to hand over Palestinian land to Palestinians. Simple as that!!


Even this month, Israel "Legalized" more settlements in west bank. Every time Palestinians want to sit down for solution, Israel "Provokes" them and then blame them for not talking to Israel. You can follow this Israeli double talk over decades. Very predictable. Since US election year is coming, I predict Israel will show more power over Palestinians.


 


I do not see any good reason why average Palestinians should even trust Israeli intentions with their lands...

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3 years ago  ::  Apr 27, 2012 - 12:31PM #50
habesor
Posts: 5,803

BDboy, 


This is in response to yourprevious message though I am only going to cite one small part. You wrote:


"Generally we discuss ISSUES here." 



I would say that we are supposed to discuss issues here but very often we don't. There are a lot of issues to be discussed relating to the Arab-Israeli and Palestinian-Israeli conflict. These include human rights, international law, civil rights, democracy, war crimes, policies, big power influence and a whole bunch of others. Invariably instead of discussing the issues, we discuss how one or the other of the parties in conflict are not living up to the standards we set on any particular issue. So instead of talking about an issue, we end up bashing one or another of the parties. 


You ended your letter with a reference to illegal Israeli settlements. Why not instead, make a reference to the issue of illegal settlements which might include both Israeli and Arab settlements. Then instead of bashing Israel over settlements, we could, in fact, discuss the issue of illegal settlements.


Habesor

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