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Switch to Forum Live View What would happen if Arab and Muslim nations in the Middle East stopped denying Israel's right to...
2 years ago  ::  Apr 26, 2012 - 11:17AM #51
JAstor
Posts: 3,957

Apr 26, 2012 -- 12:22AM, Miraj wrote:


Apr 26, 2012 -- 12:15AM, rangerken wrote:


What do members think would happen if Arabs and Muslims in the Middle East stopped denying Israel's right to exist? That is the thread question and it does need responses based on the stated topic. The digressions are interesting, but not actually on the topic...to be redundant.


What I think is that once Arabs and Muslims (and the differentiation matters because not all Arabs are Muslims...the huge majority sure...but not all...and not all Muslims are Arabs even in the Middle East...again, most sure, but not all...Persians for example are NOT Arabs) accept Israel's right to exist, where it is and how it is, just about everything and anything positive not only will be possible, but will happen.


That's my opinion, simply stated.


Ken




The denial or acceptance of the theoretical "right to exist" is not a matter for individual Arabs or Muslims to decide.  It is a political question regarding a nation to be decided by nations, much like the question of whether Tel Aviv is Israel's capital or not.  As an Arab Muslim, I can say it is, but that makes no difference to Israel.



This is the classic response of an autocrat. The choice is not in the hands of the people, but a small cadre of the privileged -- in this case the cadre of a small circle of autocratic, despotic Arab-Muslim leaders who want to keep the status quo. 

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 26, 2012 - 11:18AM #52
JAstor
Posts: 3,957

Apr 26, 2012 -- 12:43AM, habesor wrote:


It is my opinion that one of the reasons why the Arab-Israeli conflict has proven to be so diffiult to resolve is because of the Arab unwillingness to accept the existence of the State of Israel. This manifests itself in many ways, one of them being Arab refusal to accept the idea of the right of Israel to exist. As a consequence the conflict itself has taken on the characteristic of a zero-sum game where the gains of one side can only come at the expense of the other. Hence, it becomes impossible make a peace proposal that will be seen as mutually beneficial by all sides. I think that it was not a coincidence that when Sadat came to Jerusalem and addressed the Israeli Knesset along with presenting the Arab case he also said in his speech that it was time for the Arabs to realize that the Jews also had a right to a small corner of the Middle East. Once he acknowledged that right, peace was possible between Egypt and Israel. 


There have been quite a few very bloody conflicts in the Middle East. Many of them relate to the Arab nationalist unwillingness to recognize the national rights of non-Arabs in the region. We see this in conflicts in Darfur and the Southern Sudan. We see this in the relations between the Iraqi government and its Kurdish minority. Each of these conflicts are or were far more costly in human life than is the Arab-Israeli conflict, though the latter has much better press coverage.


To conclude, I would just reiterate that in my opinion, Arab recognition of Jewish national rights is not needed by Israel but is most definitely needed by the Arab states if there is an intention to peacefully resolve this conflict to everyone's benefit.


Habesor 




Very well said. 

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 26, 2012 - 11:35AM #53
Miraj
Posts: 5,020

Apr 26, 2012 -- 11:11AM, JAstor wrote:


Apr 26, 2012 -- 12:02AM, Miraj wrote:


Apr 25, 2012 --  4:10PM, JAstor wrote:


Meanwhile, the problem is not only Arab and Muslim nations denying Israel's right to exist, but Arabs and Muslims. So many of them have been so brainwashed by everything from government sponsored media to clerics in mosques they seem to have no free will to look at the situation in any other way, to say nothing of objectively.



It was in response to the oft-repeated notion by some that Israel is a bastion of peace and equality by freedom loving pacifists, but Arab countries are cesspools of hateful racism.



Since I've been misquoted, let me state my view clearly.


Israel is a flawed democracy, but the vast majority of Arab and Muslims countries in the Middle East are much worse since they are essentially autocratic totalitarian states, many of which have government-sponsored media wings that spread anti-Semitism and other hatreds to incite the masses and deflect criticism away from their own egregious flaws and backward ways. 


Is there anything in there that you specifically disagree with, Miraj?






I'd advise you to go to the countries you criticize. It's more than a little obvious to someone like me who has spent time within the borders of  Israel's Arab neighbors that you've spent no time there and that your opinions are based on lurid stereotypes.  As such, your credibilty is negligible.


Second, When there is more comfort here with comparisons to countries with full democracies, then Israel will have something to brag about.  A flawed  democracy struggling with racism, apartheid and its own backward orthodox and political elements is currently nothing special to write home about, even the ME.


Disclaimer: The opinions of this member are not primarily informed by western ethnocentric paradigms, stereotypes rooted in anti-Muslim/Islam hysteria, "Israel can do no wrong" intransigence, or the perceived need to protect the Judeo-Christian world from invading foreign religions and legal concepts.  By expressing such views, no inherent attempt is being made to derail or hijack threads, but that may be the result.  The result is not the responsibility of this member.


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2 years ago  ::  Apr 26, 2012 - 11:37AM #54
Miraj
Posts: 5,020

Apr 26, 2012 -- 11:17AM, JAstor wrote:


Apr 26, 2012 -- 12:22AM, Miraj wrote:


Apr 26, 2012 -- 12:15AM, rangerken wrote:


What do members think would happen if Arabs and Muslims in the Middle East stopped denying Israel's right to exist? That is the thread question and it does need responses based on the stated topic. The digressions are interesting, but not actually on the topic...to be redundant.


What I think is that once Arabs and Muslims (and the differentiation matters because not all Arabs are Muslims...the huge majority sure...but not all...and not all Muslims are Arabs even in the Middle East...again, most sure, but not all...Persians for example are NOT Arabs) accept Israel's right to exist, where it is and how it is, just about everything and anything positive not only will be possible, but will happen.


That's my opinion, simply stated.


Ken




The denial or acceptance of the theoretical "right to exist" is not a matter for individual Arabs or Muslims to decide.  It is a political question regarding a nation to be decided by nations, much like the question of whether Tel Aviv is Israel's capital or not.  As an Arab Muslim, I can say it is, but that makes no difference to Israel.



This is the classic response of an autocrat. The choice is not in the hands of the people, but a small cadre of the privileged -- in this case the cadre of a small circle of autocratic, despotic Arab-Muslim leaders who want to keep the status quo. 





The same is said to be true of Israel's leadership by many of us who can vote there and are obliged to have an opinion.

Disclaimer: The opinions of this member are not primarily informed by western ethnocentric paradigms, stereotypes rooted in anti-Muslim/Islam hysteria, "Israel can do no wrong" intransigence, or the perceived need to protect the Judeo-Christian world from invading foreign religions and legal concepts.  By expressing such views, no inherent attempt is being made to derail or hijack threads, but that may be the result.  The result is not the responsibility of this member.


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2 years ago  ::  Apr 26, 2012 - 12:16PM #55
JAstor
Posts: 3,957

Apr 26, 2012 -- 11:35AM, Miraj wrote:


I'd advise you to go to the countries you criticize. It's more than a little obvious to someone like me who has spent time within the borders of  Israel's Arab neighbors that you've spent no time there and that your opinions are based on lurid stereotypes.  As such, your credibilty is negligible.



And the credibility of an Arab-Muslim in these countries to evaluate anti-Semitism is not obviously a ridiculously biased claim? It's like a white guy going to the south and saying there is no hatred against blacks. 


And as for the political autocracy, it is all plain to see. Not even worth denying.

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 26, 2012 - 12:36PM #56
Miraj
Posts: 5,020

Apr 26, 2012 -- 12:16PM, JAstor wrote:


Apr 26, 2012 -- 11:35AM, Miraj wrote:


I'd advise you to go to the countries you criticize. It's more than a little obvious to someone like me who has spent time within the borders of  Israel's Arab neighbors that you've spent no time there and that your opinions are based on lurid stereotypes.  As such, your credibilty is negligible.



And the credibility of an Arab-Muslim in these countries to evaluate anti-Semitism is not obviously a ridiculously biased claim? It's like a white guy going to the south and saying there is no hatred against blacks. 


And as for the political autocracy, it is all plain to see. Not even worth denying.




Get off the Internet and travel to the countries you are misinformed about.  You may learn something.

Disclaimer: The opinions of this member are not primarily informed by western ethnocentric paradigms, stereotypes rooted in anti-Muslim/Islam hysteria, "Israel can do no wrong" intransigence, or the perceived need to protect the Judeo-Christian world from invading foreign religions and legal concepts.  By expressing such views, no inherent attempt is being made to derail or hijack threads, but that may be the result.  The result is not the responsibility of this member.


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2 years ago  ::  Apr 26, 2012 - 12:45PM #57
JAstor
Posts: 3,957

Apr 26, 2012 -- 12:36PM, Miraj wrote:


Apr 26, 2012 -- 12:16PM, JAstor wrote:


Apr 26, 2012 -- 11:35AM, Miraj wrote:


I'd advise you to go to the countries you criticize. It's more than a little obvious to someone like me who has spent time within the borders of  Israel's Arab neighbors that you've spent no time there and that your opinions are based on lurid stereotypes.  As such, your credibilty is negligible.



And the credibility of an Arab-Muslim in these countries to evaluate anti-Semitism is not obviously a ridiculously biased claim? It's like a white guy going to the south and saying there is no hatred against blacks. 


And as for the political autocracy, it is all plain to see. Not even worth denying.




Get off the Internet and travel to the countries you are misinformed about.  You may learn something.






Convert to Judaism and look at it from a Jew's perspective.


In any event, to get back on topic, what would happen if Arabs and Muslims in the Middle East -- as well as Arab and Muslim nations -- stopped denying Israel's right to exist?

Moderated by Miraj on Apr 26, 2012 - 12:48PM
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 26, 2012 - 12:50PM #58
Miraj
Posts: 5,020

Apr 26, 2012 -- 12:45PM, JAstor wrote:


Apr 26, 2012 -- 12:36PM, Miraj wrote:


Apr 26, 2012 -- 12:16PM, JAstor wrote:


Apr 26, 2012 -- 11:35AM, Miraj wrote:


I'd advise you to go to the countries you criticize. It's more than a little obvious to someone like me who has spent time within the borders of  Israel's Arab neighbors that you've spent no time there and that your opinions are based on lurid stereotypes.  As such, your credibilty is negligible.



And the credibility of an Arab-Muslim in these countries to evaluate anti-Semitism is not obviously a ridiculously biased claim? It's like a white guy going to the south and saying there is no hatred against blacks. 


And as for the political autocracy, it is all plain to see. Not even worth denying.




Get off the Internet and travel to the countries you are misinformed about.  You may learn something.




Convert to Judaism and look at it from a Jew's perspective.


In any event, to get back on topic, what would happen if Arabs and Muslims in the Middle East -- as well as Arab and Muslim nations -- stopped denying Israel's right to exist?





I could advise you to be an Israeli Muslim or a Palestinian refugee to see what you currently are blinded to.


You can keep asking that question, but we all know that individual Arabs and Muslims have no ability to recognize Israel. 

Disclaimer: The opinions of this member are not primarily informed by western ethnocentric paradigms, stereotypes rooted in anti-Muslim/Islam hysteria, "Israel can do no wrong" intransigence, or the perceived need to protect the Judeo-Christian world from invading foreign religions and legal concepts.  By expressing such views, no inherent attempt is being made to derail or hijack threads, but that may be the result.  The result is not the responsibility of this member.


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2 years ago  ::  Apr 26, 2012 - 12:53PM #59
JAstor
Posts: 3,957

Apr 26, 2012 -- 12:50PM, Miraj wrote:


I could advise you to be an Israeli Muslim or a Palestinian refugee to see what you currently are blinded to.



Fair enough. But don't tell anyone that just because you've gone to these countries you can offer an objective opinion on how it feels to be a Jew there (if any Jews remain; most were long ago kicked out). 


Apr 26, 2012 -- 12:50PM, Miraj wrote:


You can keep asking that question, but we all know that individual Arabs and Muslims have no ability to recognize Israel. 




I'll keep asking the question and you'll keep avoiding the answer. 

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 26, 2012 - 1:02PM #60
Miraj
Posts: 5,020

Apr 26, 2012 -- 12:53PM, JAstor wrote:


Apr 26, 2012 -- 12:50PM, Miraj wrote:


I could advise you to be an Israeli Muslim or a Palestinian refugee to see what you currently are blinded to.



Fair enough. But don't tell anyone that just because you've gone to these countries you can offer an objective opinion on how it feels to be a Jew there (if any Jews remain; most were long ago kicked out). 


So, I need to be a Jew now?  At least I know that they are not like what you've been reading online.  That's a great start.


Apr 26, 2012 -- 12:50PM, Miraj wrote:


You can keep asking that question, but we all know that individual Arabs and Muslims have no ability to recognize Israel. 




I'll keep asking the question and you'll keep avoiding the answer. 


There is no answer, just as there is no "right to exist".  It seems to me that there must be something better to do than to encourage head games about a non-issue.





Disclaimer: The opinions of this member are not primarily informed by western ethnocentric paradigms, stereotypes rooted in anti-Muslim/Islam hysteria, "Israel can do no wrong" intransigence, or the perceived need to protect the Judeo-Christian world from invading foreign religions and legal concepts.  By expressing such views, no inherent attempt is being made to derail or hijack threads, but that may be the result.  The result is not the responsibility of this member.


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