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Switch to Forum Live View What would happen if Arab and Muslim nations in the Middle East stopped denying Israel's right to...
2 years ago  ::  Apr 27, 2012 - 2:03PM #91
JAstor
Posts: 3,957

Apr 27, 2012 -- 1:43PM, Miraj wrote:


They are separate, but, since there is no right to enforce, that is where philosophy kicks in.  The only thing that matters is if you can successfully defend your nation through military means.  If you can't, no philosophical "right" wil save your azz.



That pretty much summarizes the history of Islam (granted, not only the history of Islam), and explains the current state of the Arabic and Islamic Middle East. So I'm not surprised it's your opinion. 


Apr 27, 2012 -- 1:43PM, Miraj wrote:


That sums up the history of the world, period. Ken would agree with me re military might.  Negotiators have only so much power to cease and desist on a global scale.



Ken does agree, yes. Israel apparently doesn't, however. Had they agreed they would have nuked their enemies a long time ago. Or even not considering nukes, as Ken has said they should have done things like kick the Muslims off the Temple Mount and basically clean out Gaza and the West Bank of all enemies. But they didn't. Must be they don't hold you Ken or you or Islam. 


Apr 27, 2012 -- 1:43PM, Miraj wrote:


It's a shame that you believe that your opinion is fact and that if you repeat it often enough, it will become reality.  Works for me though,



Freudian projection, if there ever was.


Apr 27, 2012 -- 1:43PM, Miraj wrote:


as long as you're depending on a broken stick to save Israel from the one state solution, it's a lock for my side.




Ah, Miraj the phophetess. I guess it's better than Miraj, the Almighty God.



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2 years ago  ::  Apr 27, 2012 - 2:09PM #92
Miraj
Posts: 5,020

Hi, J.  Please let me know when you've got some examples of the philosophical "right to exist" being successfully applied in a real situation anywhere in the world.  Thanks.

Disclaimer: The opinions of this member are not primarily informed by western ethnocentric paradigms, stereotypes rooted in anti-Muslim/Islam hysteria, "Israel can do no wrong" intransigence, or the perceived need to protect the Judeo-Christian world from invading foreign religions and legal concepts.  By expressing such views, no inherent attempt is being made to derail or hijack threads, but that may be the result.  The result is not the responsibility of this member.


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2 years ago  ::  Apr 28, 2012 - 12:52AM #93
habesor
Posts: 5,625

Miraj,


In message #86 you begin by writing:


"I also don't recognize a right to a Jewish state."  


Then you list all sorts of reasons why you don't recognize a right to a Jewish state, which seems to me to apply to states in general. You end with the statement:


"But, that's why I'm 1SS." 



I could point out that this is a self-contradictory position but in international relations states often take self-contradictory positions, so that would neither be a fundamental flaw nor the major problem here.


As I see it, this rejection of the right to a Jewish state combined with the unwillingness to examine anything other than the perceived negative actions and flaws  of the State of Israel, is one of the major factors, on the part of the Arabs, which keeps this conflict going. Just as the writer cannot accept the right of the Jews to a state of their own and this leads to a conclusion that only the dissolution of the Jewish State through a one state solution can end the conflict, so the Palestinians have trapped themselves into a situation where they could not recognize the right of existence of a Jewish State and cannot reach any compromise peace with that state.


Once again, I restate the issue as I see it. Recognition on the part of the Palestinians of the right of  existence of the Jewish state is not essential for the State of Israel. It is absolutely essential for the Palestinian Arabs if the are to ever develop the capability to reach a peaceful settlement of this conflict where both peoples can have national self-determination. Until that happens, the Palestinians will continue, as they have done in the past, to deny themselves a state as long as it is accompanied  by the existence of a Jewish State.


Habesor

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 28, 2012 - 1:14AM #94
Miraj
Posts: 5,020

My views are only partly stated on MENP.  I'm so much more well-rounded in real life.  With the abundance of criticism directed at Arabs, in general, and Palestinians, in particular, by others, there is simply no need for me to partake in that.  


As an Israeli, I have a right to comment on Israel in ways that I believe will move it from intransigence to inspiration.  As an Arab Muslim, I have a perpective that doesn't comport with, nor rely on, Zionism for its cues.  As an American, I've seen a better way, and have already lived through the history of a country clawing its way to a full democracy and equal opportunity for all.


As an indigenous person whose heritage includes losses to colonialism on both sides, I bring more than one holocaust to the table.  As a humanitarian, I'm looking for equitable solutions that will do justice for the greatest number of people, not just preserve a privilege for any one group.  As an individual, I doubt that my posts, however disappointing to some, have any real impact on, nor any responsibility for, the situation in the ME.


Apr 28, 2012 -- 12:52AM, habesor wrote:


Miraj,


In message #86 you begin by writing:


"I also don't recognize a right to a Jewish state."  


Then you list all sorts of reasons why you don't recognize a right to a Jewish state, which seems to me to apply to states in general. You end with the statement:


"But, that's why I'm 1SS." 



I could point out that this is a self-contradictory position but in international relations states often take self-contradictory positions, so that would neither be a fundamental flaw nor the major problem here.


As I see it, this rejection of the right to a Jewish state combined with the unwillingness to examine anything other than the perceived negative actions and flaws  of the State of Israel, is one of the major factors, on the part of the Arabs, which keeps this conflict going. Just as the writer cannot accept the right of the Jews to a state of their own and this leads to a conclusion that only the dissolution of the Jewish State through a one state solution can end the conflict, so the Palestinians have trapped themselves into a situation where they could not recognize the right of existence of a Jewish State and cannot reach any compromise peace with that state.


Once again, I restate the issue as I see it. Recognition on the part of the Palestinians of the right of  existence of the Jewish state is not essential for the State of Israel. It is absolutely essential for the Palestinian Arabs if the are to ever develop the capability to reach a peaceful settlement of this conflict where both peoples can have national self-determination. Until that happens, the Palestinians will continue, as they have done in the past, to deny themselves a state as long as it is accompanied  by the existence of a Jewish State.


Habesor





Disclaimer: The opinions of this member are not primarily informed by western ethnocentric paradigms, stereotypes rooted in anti-Muslim/Islam hysteria, "Israel can do no wrong" intransigence, or the perceived need to protect the Judeo-Christian world from invading foreign religions and legal concepts.  By expressing such views, no inherent attempt is being made to derail or hijack threads, but that may be the result.  The result is not the responsibility of this member.


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2 years ago  ::  Apr 28, 2012 - 1:27AM #95
habesor
Posts: 5,625

Miraj,


As an Israeli I have a right to comment on just about anything I please. As an observer on the Middle East, I believe that Israel bashing, Arab bashing, Palestinian bashing or Muslim bashing does nothing to advance the cause of peace. I also don't believe that white washing any of the above does that either. As a consequence I am committed to discussing the truth about all of them, as I see it, in an attempt to get at an understanding of the reality of the situation that may lead to policies and behaviors that will lead to peace between them. I therefore have no excuses that prevent me from discussing all of them, warts and all. 


In my opinion there is no way that a one-sided discussion, for whatever justifications,  can do anything other than distort the reality of what is going on here.


Habesor

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 28, 2012 - 2:24AM #96
Miraj
Posts: 5,020

Apr 28, 2012 -- 1:27AM, habesor wrote:


Miraj,


As an Israeli I have a right to comment on just about anything I please. As an observer on the Middle East, I believe that Israel bashing, Arab bashing, Palestinian bashing or Muslim bashing does nothing to advance the cause of peace. I also don't believe that white washing any of the above does that either. As a consequence I am committed to discussing the truth about all of them, as I see it, in an attempt to get at an understanding of the reality of the situation that may lead to policies and behaviors that will lead to peace between them. I therefore have no excuses that prevent me from discussing all of them, warts and all. 


That is so honorable, my friend, and I sincerely give you kudos for it 

In my opinion there is no way that a one-sided discussion, for whatever justifications,  can do anything other than distort the reality of what is going on here.


True. That's why I'm not always one-sided.





Disclaimer: The opinions of this member are not primarily informed by western ethnocentric paradigms, stereotypes rooted in anti-Muslim/Islam hysteria, "Israel can do no wrong" intransigence, or the perceived need to protect the Judeo-Christian world from invading foreign religions and legal concepts.  By expressing such views, no inherent attempt is being made to derail or hijack threads, but that may be the result.  The result is not the responsibility of this member.


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2 years ago  ::  May 04, 2012 - 7:18AM #97
JAstor
Posts: 3,957

Apr 28, 2012 -- 1:27AM, habesor wrote:


As an Israeli I have a right to comment on just about anything I please. As an observer on the Middle East, I believe that Israel bashing, Arab bashing, Palestinian bashing or Muslim bashing does nothing to advance the cause of peace. I also don't believe that white washing any of the above does that either. As a consequence I am committed to discussing the truth about all of them, as I see it, in an attempt to get at an understanding of the reality of the situation that may lead to policies and behaviors that will lead to peace between them. I therefore have no excuses that prevent me from discussing all of them, warts and all.



If only more people shared your opinion. 


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