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Switch to Forum Live View What would happen if Israel stopped fighting the world?
2 years ago  ::  Apr 25, 2012 - 4:00PM #51
KindredSai
Posts: 5,744

And it remains a good reason to continue to support Israel in as much as Israel is a 'western' society for the most part and its enemies are not! I think it is a shame that governments are no willing to be open and honst about this.



Respectfully disagree.


True Western values are about equality regardless of ethnicity. Israel unlike Western nations such as the US, UK and so forth is ethno-centric, it claims West Bank and Gaza but refuses to give Palestinians citizenship because they are Muslim and Christian.


Secondly Western values such as democracy, are supported by the masses of the Islamic world as the Arab spring has shown, Arabs, Muslims like the rest of us yearn to have democracy, a respect for human rights and so forth,

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 25, 2012 - 4:03PM #52
BDboy
Posts: 5,795

Apr 25, 2012 -- 3:47PM, rangerken wrote:


Apr 25, 2012 -- 3:36PM, KindredSai wrote:


"The best and most honest reason why Israel came into being is because of rabid racism by the European colonialist nations that controled the area toward both Arabs and Jews."



Habesor,


There is some truth in this statement. The holocaust accelerated the creation of Israel and was due to the racism fo colonialist nations, many of which did not want to house a Jewish refugee population.


Secondly, while anti-semitism was rabid on continental Europe, the British and Americans had a much more favourable opinion towards Jews because they (those who were pwerful Zionists) were a Proto-European people and they followed a Judeo-Christian narrative with Western values.



I agree. And it still holds tue. And it remains a good reason to continue to support Israel in as much as Israel is a 'western' society for the most part and its enemies are not! I think it is a shame that governments are no willing to be open and honst about this.


Ken




 


>>>>>>>>> RK,


I always like your honesty. You say what you mean. Cannot say that for everyone. :-)


You are right, Israel is a "western" soceity. The only "Moral" problem with that argument is Israel is NOT located in the west. Which makes it a 21st century "Colonial post" in Arabia.


It is no surprise, Israel does not have many friends in the region. Their patrons are formal colonial masters from the west and again such perception is a problem for long term survival for the state of Israel.


Even the most powerful armies like the US was beaten in Vietnam. I hope Israel is not planning to fight for next hundred years. That would not make our world safer....

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 25, 2012 - 5:02PM #53
browbeaten
Posts: 3,194

Apr 25, 2012 -- 3:55PM, BDboy wrote:


Apr 24, 2012 -- 5:31PM, rocketjsquirell wrote:


BDboy


Prior to the re-establishment of the state of Israel, the Jewish residents of the area were generally known as Palestinians the Arabs were not and most of the Arab population pointedly refused to identified in that manner. While individuals and groups may choose to call themselves what they will, when they will, falsifying the historical record is still a no no. Please refrain from doing so.




 


>>>>>>> I have done my homework. And my research says, it is you who has been posting hundreds of false post denying existance of PALESTINE. Which is something done to dehumanise others who has a dispute.


Well, the very birth of Israel was announced by Palestine post.


It will be impossible to deny Palestine (Which existed for hundreds of years) for anyone who practice fairness.


{ Source: twitpic.com/8efm2a }


 


Shalom!




It is not the facts that you are having problems with, it is the understanding of those facts.  No one has denied that there was a region called Palestine.  What is being stated is that that there was no Palestinian state, nor a nationalistic people self-identified as Palestinians. 


BTW, the Palestinian Post was a Jewish newspaper.

Moderated by Miraj on Apr 26, 2012 - 03:21AM
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 25, 2012 - 5:51PM #54
KindredSai
Posts: 5,744

No one has denied that there was a region called Palestine.  What is being stated is that that there was no Palestinian state, nor a nationalistic people self-identified as Palestinians. 



As I have cited before, the Palestine Mandate had the bearings of a Nation-State and the inhabitants were nationals of Palestine.



BTW, the Palestinian Post was a Jewish newspaper.



True which turned into the Jerusalem Post. However there was also an Al Filasteen (The Palestine) newspaper founded by Palestinian Arabs.


The Palestinian Post was founded in 1932, Al Filasteen however was founded in 1911 and is thus older.

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 25, 2012 - 6:03PM #55
browbeaten
Posts: 3,194

Apr 25, 2012 -- 5:51PM, KindredSai wrote:


No one has denied that there was a region called Palestine.  What is being stated is that that there was no Palestinian state, nor a nationalistic people self-identified as Palestinians. 



As I have cited before, the Palestine Mandate had the bearings of a Nation-State and the inhabitants were nationals of Palestine.



BTW, the Palestinian Post was a Jewish newspaper.



True which turned into the Jerusalem Post. However there was also an Al Filasteen (The Palestine) newspaper founded by Palestinian Arabs.


The Palestinian Post was founded in 1932, Al Filasteen however was founded in 1911 and is thus older.




Sai, do you happen to have any links or links to articles from Al Filasteen?  I would like to read up on it.




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2 years ago  ::  Apr 25, 2012 - 6:29PM #56
vra
Posts: 6,403

Apr 25, 2012 -- 4:03PM, BDboy wrote:


The only "Moral" problem with that argument is Israel is NOT located in the west. Which makes it a 21st century "Colonial post" in Arabia.


It is no surprise, Israel does not have many friends in the region. Their patrons are formal colonial masters from the west and again such perception is a problem for long term survival for the state of Israel.




 


Indonesia, which is the most populous Islamic nation, is no where located near most of the other Islamic countries, so do you think those that are Muslem should leave and go west?  Or how about Pakistan and Bangladesh, which were carved out of a greater India, do you think those two states should be dissolved?  Six centuries ago, the U.S. was invaded by Christian forces coming from Europe, so do you think all these people here now should return back to Europe?  What about the Islamic invasions by Mohammed and his successors, should all Muslems now living in northern Africa and most of the Middle East go and live in Medina (Mecca was taken by the sword)?


The bottom line: no national boundaries show up when looking at Earth from a satellite, and boundaries have been moved since they first were invented, and people have moved from place to place.  Israel exists, and arguing at this point that it shouldn't makes not one iota of sense.  If one believes Israel shouldn't exist, then why not other states that have been artificially carved out, such as Lebanon, which used to have a Christian majority, btw? 


 

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 25, 2012 - 10:38PM #57
Miraj
Posts: 5,021

Apr 25, 2012 -- 3:55PM, BDboy wrote:


Apr 24, 2012 -- 5:31PM, rocketjsquirell wrote:


BDboy


Prior to the re-establishment of the state of Israel, the Jewish residents of the area were generally known as Palestinians the Arabs were not and most of the Arab population pointedly refused to identified in that manner. While individuals and groups may choose to call themselves what they will, when they will, falsifying the historical record is still a no no. Please refrain from doing so.




 


>>>>>>> I have done my homework. And my research says, it is you who has been posting hundreds of false post denying existance of PALESTINE. Which is something done to dehumanise others who has a dispute.


Well, the very birth of Israel was announced by Palestine post.


It will be impossible to deny Palestine (Which existed for hundreds of years) for anyone who practice fairness.


{ Source: twitpic.com/8efm2a }


 


Shalom!




Rocky is spouting the Zionist narrative, which is demonstrably untrue.  Here is a 1921 article, Political Zionism, from The Atlantic Magazine, which discusses political issues surrounding Palestine and, its long term inhabitants, the Palestinians in depth. 


There are references to Palestine and Palestinians, Arab and Jew, in official documents and articles going back to the 1800s.  My grandparents considered themselves to be Palestinians, and they weren't Jewish.  

Disclaimer: The opinions of this member are not primarily informed by western ethnocentric paradigms, stereotypes rooted in anti-Muslim/Islam hysteria, "Israel can do no wrong" intransigence, or the perceived need to protect the Judeo-Christian world from invading foreign religions and legal concepts.  By expressing such views, no inherent attempt is being made to derail or hijack threads, but that may be the result.  The result is not the responsibility of this member.


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2 years ago  ::  Apr 26, 2012 - 2:04AM #58
CharikIeia
Posts: 8,301

Apr 25, 2012 -- 10:38PM, Miraj wrote:


[T]he Zionist narrative ... is demonstrably untrue.  Here is a 1921 article, Political Zionism, from The Atlantic Magazine, which discusses political issues surrounding Palestine and, its long term inhabitants, the Palestinians in depth.



Thanks for this link, Miraj! It was very informative.


I think journalism in general has much more to contribute to our understanding by making earlier decades' newspaper editions electronical than by participating in today's pointless yet venomous debates...

tl;dr
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 26, 2012 - 12:16PM #59
Miraj
Posts: 5,021

Apr 25, 2012 -- 6:06AM, habesor wrote:


Miraj, in message #37 you requested:


"Please point out my negative generalizations, Habesor. I'd like to know what you consider generalizations in my comment. Perhaps that could explain why generalizations about Arabs and Muslims are not recognized by those who post them."


I have taken your statement:


"The best and most honest reason why Israel came into being is because of rabid racism by the European colonialist nations that controled the area toward both Arabs and Jews."


And rewritten it thus:



"The best and most honest reason why the Palestinian are being supported is because of rabid anti-Semitism by the Middle Eastern Muslim nations that control the area, toward the Jews."


I have written the above in red because I don't believe it to be true. I don't believe your original statement to be true either but that is a matter of opinion. However, I think that you would agree that the original statement contained over-generalizations. If you don't agree, I hope that this illustrates for you why some might see your statement as containing over-generalizations.


Habesor




I don't see any negative generalizations against an ethnic or religous group in my statement.  It is a historical fact that racism against Jews and Arabs was a factor in motivating European powers to consider and assist in the creation of Israel.



Your rewritten version, however, is indeed full of stereotypes and negative generalizations.

Disclaimer: The opinions of this member are not primarily informed by western ethnocentric paradigms, stereotypes rooted in anti-Muslim/Islam hysteria, "Israel can do no wrong" intransigence, or the perceived need to protect the Judeo-Christian world from invading foreign religions and legal concepts.  By expressing such views, no inherent attempt is being made to derail or hijack threads, but that may be the result.  The result is not the responsibility of this member.


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2 years ago  ::  Apr 26, 2012 - 12:17PM #60
Miraj
Posts: 5,021

Apr 26, 2012 -- 2:04AM, CharikIeia wrote:


Apr 25, 2012 -- 10:38PM, Miraj wrote:


[T]he Zionist narrative ... is demonstrably untrue.  Here is a 1921 article, Political Zionism, from The Atlantic Magazine, which discusses political issues surrounding Palestine and, its long term inhabitants, the Palestinians in depth.



Thanks for this link, Miraj! It was very informative.


I think journalism in general has much more to contribute to our understanding by making earlier decades' newspaper editions electronical than by participating in today's pointless yet venomous debates...





You're welcome, Chari.  There are many like this, but so many require research memberships to access.

Disclaimer: The opinions of this member are not primarily informed by western ethnocentric paradigms, stereotypes rooted in anti-Muslim/Islam hysteria, "Israel can do no wrong" intransigence, or the perceived need to protect the Judeo-Christian world from invading foreign religions and legal concepts.  By expressing such views, no inherent attempt is being made to derail or hijack threads, but that may be the result.  The result is not the responsibility of this member.


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