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3 years ago  ::  Apr 17, 2012 - 10:45AM #1
catboxer
Posts: 14,012
Here are the top five green energy stories of the day. Got this at Juancole.com.

5. France has decided to build 2 gigawatts worth of wind turbines offshore, as its nuclear plants age and updating them or replacing them becomes expensive and unpopular. France gets roughly 80% of its electricity from nuclear plants. It is the 20% coming from hydrocarbons that desperately needs to be replaced by sources such as wind power.

4. In Germany, wind and solar are still rapidly increasing as a share of German energy-producers (renewables produce about 20% of German electricy but only 8 percent in the United Kingdom.

3. About 7 gigawatts of solar energy installations were put in, in the United States in 2011. That is roughly equivalent to 7 nuclear reactors. The US has a little over 100 of such nuclear reactors.

2. Mexico is considering becoming only the second country to pass a really strict hydorcarbons law.

1. Morocco, which has no oil of its own to speak of, is doing a big wind project. Morocco hopes to build 4,000 megawatts in wind and solar power capacity by 2020 which would be about half its energy needs.

www.juancole.com/2012/04/top-five-green-...

After all is said and done, we're moving ahead, because you can't legislate the future out of existence. Also, too, petroleum is now a sunset industry.
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3 years ago  ::  Apr 19, 2012 - 12:17AM #2
MMarcoe
Posts: 17,220

Petroleum picked a good decade to go out with a bang. Production is up in the US and will be for a few years yet as we transition. Perhaps all will be well for us, and we won't need to invade Venezuela for more oil.


 

1. Extremists think that thinking means agreeing with them.
2. There are three sides to every story: your side, my side, and the truth.
3. God is just a personification of reality, of pure objectivity.
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3 years ago  ::  Apr 19, 2012 - 12:33AM #3
teilhard
Posts: 51,833

Yeah ... As Oil Production FALLS, Prices go UP, fueling a "Boom" in Exploration and Extraction ...


But it will be (historically) short-lived ...


Apr 19, 2012 -- 12:17AM, MMarcoe wrote:


Petroleum picked a good decade to go out with a bang. Production is up in the US and will be for a few years yet as we transition. Perhaps all will be well for us, and we won't need to invade Venezuela for more oil.


 





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3 years ago  ::  Apr 19, 2012 - 9:00AM #4
Hatman
Posts: 9,634
In addition to other methods(e.g. tapping the zero-point field), there is always the possibility of switching to multiple alternative fuels, too, e.g. alcohol(non-polluting, renewable), hydrogen(essentially inexhaustible), methane(produced at every dump/sewage treatment plant in the country, non-polluting and available as long as there's poop), hemp seed oil(and other vegetable oils, e.g. peanut oil which was the original fuel Diesel designed his engine to run off of)and on and on and on.

The reason why oil's popular?  The extraordinary number of products-other-than-gasoline which can be extracted from it...and the fact that a very few companies get extraordinarily rich from it, especially after decades-long campaigns of "destroy the competition by any means possible."

That the earth itself is destroyed in this process seems to have been of little concern to these allies of the Beast.

Wind and solar and nuclear?  The first two, unreliable---the last, extremely dangerous in the event of earthquake/tornado/tsunami/other natural disasters, not to mention plain ol' sabotoogee or deliberate targeting by anyone.

Anyone remember D'ohbama's promises in re: "clean" coal and other alternative techs?  Gee, nearly 4 years and nuthin' but failed companies to show for it.  His whole premise is laughable, given that alternative fuels and methodologies for the mass-production thereof have existed for well over 120 years; his butt-buddies in the corporatocracies no doubt instructed him to spew that conciliatory/obfuscatory nonsense in order to continue to deceive the People into believing that the energy giants of today will joyfully relinquish their strangleholds on the throats of Americans.

Teach people how to make their own fuel?  Promote their independence?  Encourage them to create their own energy?  Not in the "plan," not compatible with "the system," the system that creates dependence and reliance upon nebulous "others."  Dangerous to "national security,"(defined as a protection racket for the currently-powerful) don'tcha know.

With goodwill to all the People-

Hatman
"History records that the moneychangers have used every form of abuse, deceit, intrigue, and violent means possible to maintain their control over governments by controlling money and it's issuance."
-- James Madison(1751-1836), Father of the Constitution for the USA, 4th US President
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3 years ago  ::  Apr 19, 2012 - 6:04PM #5
Bodean
Posts: 9,703

Apr 19, 2012 -- 9:00AM, Hatman wrote:

Anyone remember D'ohbama's promises in re: "clean" coal and other alternative techs? Gee, nearly 4 years and nuthin' but failed companies to show for it. His whole premise is laughable, given that alternative fuels and methodologies for the mass-production thereof have existed for well over 120 years; his butt-buddies in the corporatocracies no doubt instructed him to spew that conciliatory/obfuscatory nonsense in order to continue to deceive the People into believing that the energy giants of today will joyfully relinquish their strangleholds on the throats of Americans.




The problem with our transitioning to alternative forms of energy is caught up in the links of government to the corporate world.  This is seen in the actions.


As opposed to stimulating demand for alternative energy products by providing loans and incentives to consummers, [to date: 25 Billion in loans ear marked for alternative energy], the administration made those loans exclusive to corporate interests, like Solyndra and Ford, and other companies seeking to bring alternatives to market.


This is the crux of the problem.  Our Government is stuck on stupid with regards to "how" to implement a change. They are pumping billions into worthless wind and solar farms, that operate at a mere fraction of their alleged capacity. As you noted .. it is a corporate approach.  BUT .. You don't implement the change by providing the product .. you implement the change by facilitating DEMAND ... the Venture Capitalists will take care of bringing the product to market.


If I were prez ... I'd set that 25 Billion aside as a long term tax credit, to be taken over 10 years, to cover 75% .. or even 100% of the cost of putting solar or a windmill [if applicable] on your House or in your Yard.  I'd also make it such that if you go and put a solar system on someone else's house, you still can take the credit.  There would be millionaires putting solar systems on every house in America.  Then .. the Government recoups some of the cost of the credits through the income and sales taxes from the activity .. like is done on all other products.  It would take a year or so for the Venture Capitalists to sieze upon that 25 Billion in potential free money.  You could even put stipulations on it ... e.g., .. we'll give you a 50% coverage tax credit for systems manufactured overseas ... but an 80% coverage tax credit for systems manufactured here in the States. .. to stimulate job production etc here at home.


Such a setup would guarnatee the implementation of the technology, .. as opposed to just the building of factories ... and of course, the execs of those failed companies buying all kinds of cars and whatnot on the tax dime.


Currently ...you get a 30% tax deduction .. which amounts to a 6% tax credit.  Sorry Charlie . .... that ain't gonna intice anyone to buy a solar system.

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3 years ago  ::  Apr 19, 2012 - 6:19PM #6
catboxer
Posts: 14,012

Yes, that's it really. Demand for whatever-it-is gets analyzed by the companies that provide the stuff, which determines what kind of stuff and how much of it they're going to provide.


The big deal the Putin government just concluded with Exxon/Mobil (see thread царь Владимир) tells us a lot about world economics and energy demand. Among other things, it tells us that oil and gas are still going to be the predominant forms of energy 10 years from now.


But how about 20 years from now? In our lifetimes we've seen extraction grow more and more difficult, dangerous, and expensive in more ways than one.


I wouldn't bet on it.

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3 years ago  ::  Apr 19, 2012 - 10:02PM #7
Bodean
Posts: 9,703

Apr 19, 2012 -- 6:19PM, catboxer wrote:


Yes, that's it really. Demand for whatever-it-is gets analyzed by the companies that provide the stuff, which determines what kind of stuff and how much of it they're going to provide.


 





It really pisses me off Cat.


As much as I rail against the CAGW story, I'm a HUGE fan of solar energy.  I wanted to put a set up on my house, with the net-meter system and all ... but it was just not in the budget, and the ROI, was just not there.  It would take 30 years just to break even on it, and that's providing that there are no maintenance issues.


I've even looked into getting my own cells and building my own panels ... but .. it's still pretty expensive.


DEMAND .. that is the key.  Until our Government focuses on DEMAND, there will be no revolution to alternative energy.  You can't focus on demand, when all your attention is in the corporate world.

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3 years ago  ::  Apr 20, 2012 - 10:48AM #8
costrel
Posts: 6,226

Apr 19, 2012 -- 10:02PM, Bodean wrote:

DEMAND .. that is the key.  Until our Government focuses on DEMAND, there will be no revolution to alternative energy.  You can't focus on demand, when all your attention is in the corporate world.


And until the majority of Americans stop believing that Jesus is going to return during their own lifetimes and/or that any kind of concern for the environment and green energy is anti-Christian and anti-biblical "paganism," "pantheism," and "idolatry," there will be no demand. 

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3 years ago  ::  Apr 20, 2012 - 11:31AM #9
Find1Answer
Posts: 7,350

Apr 19, 2012 -- 10:02PM, Bodean wrote:

Apr 19, 2012 -- 6:19PM, catboxer wrote:


Yes, that's it really. Demand for whatever-it-is gets analyzed by the companies that provide the stuff, which determines what kind of stuff and how much of it they're going to provide.


 





It really pisses me off Cat.


As much as I rail against the CAGW story, I'm a HUGE fan of solar energy.  I wanted to put a set up on my house, with the net-meter system and all ... but it was just not in the budget, and the ROI, was just not there.  It would take 30 years just to break even on it, and that's providing that there are no maintenance issues.


I've even looked into getting my own cells and building my own panels ... but .. it's still pretty expensive.


DEMAND .. that is the key.  Until our Government focuses on DEMAND, there will be no revolution to alternative energy.  You can't focus on demand, when all your attention is in the corporate world.


Demand and knowledge.      and an industry that can put our trained fabricators and maintenance workers geared toward point of use.     I remember reading an interview with a solar guy heading down to a solar convention in Florida.    He said it amazed him that there was not a solar collector on every hot water heater in Florida but that less than 10% had them.   He said it was more a lack of knowledge.    I also think a great application would be for every air conditioner to be outfitted with a collector.    Las Vegas,  my goodness,   heaven knows why that entire city is not augmented with solar rather than the dwindling Lake Mead.      I wonder if the owners of the grid are protecting their energy sources like coal.      


Something is holding this industry back,   there just seems to be something fishy about it like Natural Gas going under $2.csf.      It just doesn't make sense or is going backwards rather than forward.   I know the Government is standing in the way  but there has to be something else afoot.    certainly the government has sent the money in the wrong direction but that is nothing new.   war, banks, energy.   all seem to flow somewhere and it is not point of use at this time.      

Bush's "de-Bathification program" eliminated all vestiges of Sunni power in Iraqi society and set the stage for the Sunni insurrection against American occupation and the new Shiite-led government. Bush disbanded the entire Sunni-dominated Iraqi Army and bureaucracy. He didn't change it. He didn't make it more inclusive of Shiites and Kurds. He just disbanded it. It is no accident that two of the top commanders of today's ISIL are former commanders in the Saddam-era Iraqi military.
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3 years ago  ::  Apr 20, 2012 - 11:35AM #10
Bodean
Posts: 9,703

Apr 20, 2012 -- 10:48AM, costrel wrote:


Apr 19, 2012 -- 10:02PM, Bodean wrote:

DEMAND .. that is the key.  Until our Government focuses on DEMAND, there will be no revolution to alternative energy.  You can't focus on demand, when all your attention is in the corporate world.


And until the majority of Americans stop believing that Jesus is going to return during their own lifetimes and/or that any kind of concern for the environment and green energy is anti-Christian and anti-biblical "paganism," "pantheism," and "idolatry," there will be no demand. 





This issue has nothing to do with people believing in Jesus.  It has to do with Return on Investment.


There will be no demand as long as the technology is so expensive that the "average joe" can't afford it, ... and it actually improve their lives.  I mean ... let's face it ... this "theological" concern for the environment on the part of Greens is not enough to intice people to jump in.  You want them to jump in?? ..you have to show them a real benefit.


People are jumping in on the "tech gadgets", because they allow them better communication, and faster access, which in the long run, saves them money and makes life more convenient.  OTOH ... when a device like Solar Panels, can't even pay for itself over it's life time, people just can't get excited about it ... and that is independent of whether or not Jesus is comming back tomorrow.


AND .. the government giving billions to corporate interests for factories and farms, etc, are doomed to failure, because the people don't want them.  Ya gots to focus on making them wanting them.  Ya gots to balance the cost with the benefit.  Shucking out $30-40K for the benefit of some hippies out in California all worshipping Gaia doesn't qualify as a benefit to the consummer.


Simply put, to stimulate demand, you are going to have to beat the average $12K per decade they are paying for electricity today.  Make it such that Solar System cost the consumer $10K, thus saving them $2K in a 10 year period, and major benefit over the next 20 years, they will begin to jump on board.  That's just a 66% tax credit for the average total cost of $30K, over 10 years.

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