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Switch to Forum Live View Gantz: Israel must protect Jews at home, abroad
3 years ago  ::  Apr 17, 2012 - 4:44PM #11
CharikIeia
Posts: 8,301

Apr 17, 2012 -- 1:56PM, LeahOne wrote:


How much of that 'intifada' was due to the LIE put out by the PA that israel was planning to demolish the Al Aqsa mosque?



You may be astonished, but it is the first time that I hear anyone say, "Israel was planning to demolish the Al Aqsa mosque".



How much influence do those Israel-erased textbooks have on students' perceptions about Israeli policy?



In Europe, we don't have such textbooks. Europe is what Squirrel criticised.



How do the videos we find from HAMAS TV influence people who watch them?



I don't know, but I don't think it influences any significant fraction of Europeans. I don't know anyone who would watch them, or would know someone else who would watch them.


Do you? Do Americans watch Hamas TV or read textbooks with Israel erased?


If not, why assume all this happens on my continent?


Apr 17, 2012 -- 4:21PM, Shusha wrote:


(1) The policies pursued by the state of Israel put at risk the lives of Jews worldwide.



Char,


I don't know how you intended this, but it sure strikes me as victim-blaming. 


You seem to be saying that it is the responsibility of the state of Israel to act in such a way, or put policies in place, that don't make others want to or attempt to or succeed at killing Jews.  If Jews are at risk in the world, the responsibility lies squarely on the shoulders of those who would harm Jews.  Period. 



Yes, sure.


But tell me one thing:


Why do you think general Gantz of the IDF, whose weird statement is the topic of this thread, feels responsible for the welfare of Jews who are neither Israeli citizens nor live in Israel?


He must have his own ideas about responsibility that the state of Israel has. What do you think these may be?

tl;dr
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3 years ago  ::  Apr 17, 2012 - 5:21PM #12
rocketjsquirell
Posts: 16,604

Apr 17, 2012 -- 4:32PM, BDboy wrote:


Apr 17, 2012 -- 12:47PM, CharikIeia wrote:


It's funny how Dos & Co. complain about pro-Jewish mainstream media, and you, Squirrel & Co. complain about anti-Jewish mainstream media. I guess as usual, the truth lies somewhere in-between... but then, truth may be something that only I care for, as several admissions to open partisanship & bias have proven.




 


>>>>>>> I agree with you. These counter claims are made simply to "Respond" to valid criticism of Israeli policies!!


Which often mislead people.


Here are some facts...


Jews lived in many parts of Arabia, Iran for thousands of years in relative peace with Christians and Muslims of those areas. Life of Arab Jews became risky once local population saw violence by the state of Israel. As a result many Jews from different arab countries were forced to migrate from their own lands.


BDBOY


Your statement is counter-factual. Life in arabia for Jews had been risky and precarious since the Arab invasions. Jews lived subject to the official apartheid rules of Islam and were frequently attacked and always abused by the Muslim majority throughout the Arab Muslim world. 


Jews were deported en masse by Arab governments and/or were forced by Arab governments to leave their homes. It had nothing to do with Israeli actions, unless you consider the fact that Israel was successful in defending itself from the invading Arab armies sufficient cause.


Please stop telling lies. You might also wish to consider departing your fantasy world concerning Israeli policies of which you are seriously misinformed. It is easy enough to get accurate information concerning Israeli policies. Israel maintains very accessible web sites which will provide you with this information. Please feel free to use these web sites. 


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3 years ago  ::  Apr 17, 2012 - 5:25PM #13
browbeaten
Posts: 3,230

Apr 17, 2012 -- 4:32PM, BDboy wrote:


Apr 17, 2012 -- 12:47PM, CharikIeia wrote:


It's funny how Dos & Co. complain about pro-Jewish mainstream media, and you, Squirrel & Co. complain about anti-Jewish mainstream media. I guess as usual, the truth lies somewhere in-between... but then, truth may be something that only I care for, as several admissions to open partisanship & bias have proven.




 


>>>>>>> I agree with you. These counter claims are made simply to "Respond" to valid criticism of Israeli policies!!


Which often mislead people.


Here are some facts...


Jews lived in many parts of Arabia, Iran for thousands of years in relative peace with Christians and Muslims of those areas. Life of Arab Jews became risky once local population saw violence by the state of Israel. As a result many Jews from different arab countries were forced to migrate from their own lands.


There are serious allegations against Israel for helping fanatics. During 80's Israelis worked with the CIA, Saudi and Pakistanis to block Russia in Afghanistan. Inspired from initial  success they helped launching the Hamas movement to block more secular PLO (Palestinian Liberation Organization). Both of those initiatives did not work well in the long run and back fired on USA, Saudis, Pakistanis and Israel.


While I am sad to watch innocent Jewish people suffering, part of the blame goes to flawed policies of Israel.


 


 



BDboy, please explain to me how my family was forced out of Morocco for being Jewish?  They weren't part of Israel and had nothing to do with Israel.  How about all the Jews from most every Arab country?  None were Israeli or had anything to do with Israel.  Can you explain this to me?


It seems to me that your mistaken.  It was not because of Israel, but simply because they were Jewish. Wouldn't you agree?



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3 years ago  ::  Apr 17, 2012 - 5:51PM #14
Shusha
Posts: 4,738

Why do you think general Gantz of the IDF, whose weird statement is the topic of this thread, feels responsible for the welfare of Jews who are neither Israeli citizens nor live in Israel?



Well, I think Jews, in general, have a deep sense of responsibility for and commitment to members of their community.  Especially those who endure some sort of persecution due to the sole fact that they belong to that community.  Part of the purpose of Israel is to create a safe haven for Jews. 



He must have his own ideas about responsibility that the state of Israel has. And I think he overlooks the elephant in the room, whom he could see by just looking in the mirror..



It is sort of akin to saying that if I dress provocatively not only do I deserve to be raped but that all the other women in my community also deserve to be raped.  And that the responsibility for rape prevention lies in making sure all the women dress in a manner that won't get them raped. 


The responsibility for not raping, of course, actually lies with those who commit the rapes. 


The same is exactly true for the persecution of Jews.  If Jews are persecuted -- the responsibility lies with those who persecute Jews. 

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3 years ago  ::  Apr 17, 2012 - 6:33PM #15
rangerken
Posts: 16,408

Apr 17, 2012 -- 8:29AM, Dostojevsky wrote:


Habesor, the heading of your second link - why the anti-semitism is growing in Germany.


The earth would be better for it if it was in Germany alone (if it is at all). The more I read and find out about things the more I fear for the Jews. I could not have believed it I had not lived through it. One of my fellow citizens was imprisoned because he questioned (his human right) something about Jews among many other things in his professional and personal life he would question and talk about. But for questioning Jewish version of history warranted prison sentance. That is not in Israel, that is here in Australia.


Had he questioned Scottish history or any other it would be ignored



 




This really belongs on World News & Politics. But for now, Dos, please provide a link to something that gives specificas about this Australian man being charged and, as you say, imprisoned.


Rangerken

Libertarian, Conservative, Life member of the NRA and VFW
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3 years ago  ::  Apr 17, 2012 - 6:42PM #16
rocketjsquirell
Posts: 16,604

Chari wrote:


Why do you think general Gantz of the IDF, whose weird statement is the topic of this thread, feels responsible for the welfare of Jews who are neither Israeli citizens nor live in Israel?



This statement is indicative of the problem which many people have in understanding why there is an Israel and what Israel means both to Jews and the world.  As Susha wrote, part of the purpose of Israel is to create a safe haven for Jews.


Before there was an Israel, Jews had no one on whom they could rely for protection from either governmental actions or mob violence. As an often oppressed minority (even in our own land) Jews were voiceless and powerless against these forces. A strong and sovereign Israel is a signal to the world that, as the sayings go, "We are mad as hell and we are not going to take it anymore!" and/or "We are here - get used to it!"  Only Israel has been able to rescue Jews and Jewish populations under threat around the world. No other country has done so or would do so. No other country would even think of doing so. We all know the sorry history of the "great democracies" in letting Jews go to their deaths for the "crime" of being Jewish. I would think that any European should know and understand this. But, perhaps, all the "feel good" pan-European post nationalism nonsense has robbed people of their historical knowledge and their good sense.    

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3 years ago  ::  Apr 17, 2012 - 7:48PM #17
CharikIeia
Posts: 8,301

Point is, Israel is less and less acting strong and sovereign, Squirrel.


Maybe those times can return when Netanyahu get ousted, but at the moment, I see the Israeli government as a pathetic actor enacting hollow stances.


Yes, "safe haven" is the keyword. Not "securely gated community", which describes reality more accurately these days - and by mere onlooking suggests the added qualifier "...afraid of the evil, evil world outside".


Part of the Israel project is counterproductive for Jews outside Israel. I don't say this to blame the victim, Shusha, but to describe reality - a purely descriptive statement. When a woman who dresses like a prostitute is raped, her dress does not exonerate the rapist, but it may help understand why the rape occurred, and help preclude future rapes. But then, some women may be more interested in their freedom to dress like a prostitute despite known danger.

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3 years ago  ::  Apr 18, 2012 - 2:04AM #18
habesor
Posts: 5,782

BD,


If the Jews lived in perfect safety among the Muslims before the State of Israel was created, how do you explain the behavior toward the Jews on the part of the Almohads which took place about 700 years before the State of Israel came into existence?


Habesor 

Habesor
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3 years ago  ::  Apr 18, 2012 - 2:24AM #19
habesor
Posts: 5,782

Char, 


It seems to me that you are getting into the stance of someone who finds that no matter what Israel does, it is wrong. I suppose that if Israel was not cautious in its foreign policy you would be arguing that it was showing a high degree of arrogance in its behavior. 


Let me try to explain something about political behavior in general with the following example. During the American civil war the President was the highest elected official and the commander in chief of the Union army. However, President Lincoln was well aware that a civil war was extremely political in nature and managing the various generals running the Union Army was not a question of giving commands but of playing a very complex political game. Lincoln selected General Grant to be the military commander of all of the Union Armies. Despite outranking every other officer in that army, Grant realized that he had to be politically astute in order to successfully command his subordinates. (No matter how much the previous sentence has the characteristics of an oxymoron, it was the situation.) As one historian pointed out, there were times when both Lincoln and Grant had to carefully navigate through situations where they had the formal power to command action but never-the-less found it necessary to persuade subordinates. There were also times when they were able to act decisively and, using their formal powers, force their will on subordinates. Success depended on their ability to recognize correctly when those latter opportunities occurred and to act on them.


The State of Israel, just like the USA and all other states, cannot use force or power to always get its way. The State of Israel sometimes has to act with a great deal of caution even when dealing with weaker national and international actors. Sometimes the State of Israel can use its power to get its way. Again the trick is to recognize the difference and act accordingly.


Habesor


PS - The relative success of the State of Israel compared to the failure of the Palestinians is more or less in the Israeli leadership's ability to recognize the difference and the Palestinian leadership's inability to recognize the difference.

Habesor
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3 years ago  ::  Apr 18, 2012 - 3:02AM #20
habesor
Posts: 5,782

Char,


Re: protecting Jews at home and abroad


I am writing the following as a Zionist. When the Zionist movement began, back in the 19th century, there were already different opinions within the movement about the nature of the "Jewish Problem". The early Zionists like Pinsker, Hess, Herzl and several others were very impressed by the contemporary "Scientific" analysis of society. They applied the same sort of analysis to the Jewish situation in Europe. I won't go into the complexities of these analyses but one element was the determination that anti-Semitism was caused by the Jews being an undefinable group within modern nationalistic society. It was argued that once the Jews had a modern state of their own, their position in western society would become recognizable and the fear of the Jew, which, they felt, caused anti-Semitism would come to an end.


Over the years experience has shown this not to be the case. Indeed the early Zionists made precisely the same error as the early Jewish enlightenment/assimilationists who argued that once the Jews wore the same clothes, spoke the same language and modeled their religious institutions after the Christian Church, the fear of the other, on the part of their neighbors, would come to an end and the Jews could live alongside their Christian neighbors in peace. Both the Zionists and the assimilationists were wrong for the same reason; anti-Semitism was not caused by anything the Jews did or were, it was caused by the anti-Semites.


We Zionists should not be surprised that Christian religion based anti-Jew ideology which morphed into  anti-Semitism which was based on the bogus "science" of racism; has morphed once again into anti-Zionism which is based on bogus anti-Colonialism, bogus humanitarianism, bogus liberalism or bogus "scientific" socialism.


Though this one aspect of Zionist ideology has proven woefully invalid, other aspects have, so far, proven valid. First and foremost is that a Jewish state can and does provide a safe haven for persecuted Jewish communities. Second that a Jewish state offers the opportunity, for the first time in a couple of thousand years, for a Jewish community to physically defend itself. We, in Israel, receive help from other states, especially American military aid, but we are not totally dependent on that help.


Finally, Israel is the agent for Jews around the world to help each other. Israel received and absorbed millions of refugees. A good part of the resources used in that project came from Jews around the world who took on a major part of the financial burden involved in that humanitarian project. (This at a time when the Arabs were getting financial help from the UNRWA, a bogus humanitarian organization, to prevent the absorption of Arab refugees into their countries and keep them, penned up in refugee camps for generation after generation.)  


The difference between Jewish nationalism and Arab nationalism is that Jews love our own people more than we hate the Arabs, while the Arabs hate the Jews more than they love their own people. Strangely, there are anti-colonialist liberal leftist socialists who see this as a positive attribute of the Arabs. The comment by Benny Gantz simply reflected this aspect of the Zionist idea.   


Habesor

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