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Switch to Forum Live View Israel to 'thank' fly-in activists in mocking letter
3 years ago  ::  Apr 17, 2012 - 8:02AM #11
Dostojevsky
Posts: 7,857

I watched that video on my telly and that young man was standing and talking. It was clear he was not attacking. Others might have but that young man was innocent.


It was sickening to watchYell


 

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3 years ago  ::  Apr 17, 2012 - 8:26AM #12
CharikIeia
Posts: 8,301

Apr 17, 2012 -- 7:21AM, shmuelgoldstein wrote:


Apr 17, 2012 -- 1:45AM, CharikIeia wrote:


Payback Time - Israel haters harass IDF, break officer´s finger, get hit in the face, whine about it


It radiates an inflamed, sick, violent, spiteful attitude that we all have to eschew, not perpetuate.



This response is revolting Chamberlain-esque pacifism. It's what allowed dictators and killers to arm while others stood by. It helped to allow happen the biggest slaughter in history.



Do you think the words I quoted (not Leah's, by the way, but from a paper Squirrel quoted) can be seen as radiating anything else than an inflamed, sick, violent, spiteful attitude that we all have to eschew, not perpetuate?


If so, what else emanates from these quoted words, according to you?

Moderated by rangerken on Apr 17, 2012 - 10:56AM
tl;dr
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3 years ago  ::  Apr 17, 2012 - 9:28AM #13
LeahOne
Posts: 16,566

Apr 17, 2012 -- 8:02AM, Dostojevsky wrote:


I watched that video on my telly and that young man was standing and talking. It was clear he was not attacking. Others might have but that young man was innocent.


It was sickening to watchYell





AT THAT MOMENT, he wasn't attacking...those of us who've seen Mohammed al-Dura 'die' , and then get up and walk away are a bit more skeptical about what gets shown on a film clip.

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3 years ago  ::  Apr 17, 2012 - 9:46AM #14
LeahOne
Posts: 16,566


What I think Schmuel is expressing is his extreme frustration that some people are attacking Israel for being unwelcoming to people who have come there for the SOLE purpose of .....attacking Israel, albeit not with guns and bombs.


But these 'professional activists' aren't exactly 'visitors' or 'tourists' - they're more like the group who burns crosses on your lawn, etc.   And IFF the IDF offficer's account is accurate, the 'activists' used violence *first* 


In all normal parts of the universe, coming into another's home and initiating violence is WRONG.


It is always interesting to me how civilians are so very often so quick to judge uniformed military...   It's both a good thing, as it reflects the idea that the troops are *in the employ* of the civilians - and a bad thing, as civilians have very little direct knowledge by which to evaluate much action.


I find myself wondering how many Americans would insist that foreign 'activists' be allowed to come here and rally against Capitalism or whatever?   How much sooner would JQ Public have run out of patience with 'OWS' folks if they were foreigners who came in for ONLY that purpose?


 

Moderated by rangerken on Apr 17, 2012 - 10:57AM
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3 years ago  ::  Apr 17, 2012 - 9:51AM #15
shmuelgoldstein
Posts: 2,551

Apr 17, 2012 -- 8:02AM, Dostojevsky wrote:


I watched that video on my telly and that young man was standing and talking. It was clear he was not attacking. Others might have but that young man was innocent.


It was sickening to watchYell


 




I watche it, too, but I missed the two hours before that, so I don't know what happened then.


It was clear that Eisner snapped. What made him snap?

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3 years ago  ::  Apr 17, 2012 - 10:04AM #16
LeahOne
Posts: 16,566

 Chari, I think I've partly answered your question.


And incidentally, thanks for trying to make clear which words were whose.... I've started another thread on Holbrooke's comments, BTW.


My point in that quote was to suggest that 'peaceful coexistance' requires both parties be visible to one another to even be an idea.  And that the narrative of one side has censored out the very existance of Israel, the whole 'delegitimization' effort. 


Not to mention, of course, that Israel is a reality and thus the textbooks used to teach generations of Arab people DO NOT SHOW REALITY. Which just can't be a good thing, can it?


I wonder how much of the 'protests' are based on misinformation and lack of understanding which has only been exacerbated by such political BS as censoring Israel out of existance.

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3 years ago  ::  Apr 17, 2012 - 10:05AM #17
shmuelgoldstein
Posts: 2,551

Apr 17, 2012 -- 8:26AM, CharikIeia wrote:


Apr 17, 2012 -- 7:21AM, shmuelgoldstein wrote:


Apr 17, 2012 -- 1:45AM, CharikIeia wrote:


Apr 16, 2012 -- 10:47AM, rocketjsquirell wrote:


Payback Time - Israel haters harass IDF, break officer´s finger, get hit in the face, whine about it


It radiates an inflamed, sick, violent, spiteful attitude that we all have to eschew, not perpetuate.



This response is revolting Chamberlain-esque pacifism. It's what allowed dictators and killers to arm while others stood by. It helped to allow happen the biggest slaughter in history.



Can you explain your underlying reasoning?



When someone provokes a confrontation, and gets it, then that person gets what he deserves. The attitude of the previous sentence is an attitude of requiring that people take responsibility for their own actions. When you taunt a Lion, you're going to get bitten. "Hey, stupid, get out of the Lions' den!!" That's the attitude. It's a realistic, mature attitude. It is not "inflamed", it is not "sick", it is not "violent", it is not "spiteful". But to call it that is to support pacifism, which has been shown by history to not only not bring peace, but to bring on the war that everyone wants to avoid. The most blatant example is Neville Chamberlain, but there are others in history. Such a pacifistic attitude is immoral and counterproductive.


When there is a group of foreigners - not Jewish, not Arab - clear foreigners in the Holy Land, who belong to a group that objects to the legitimacy of Israel, and carries out acts in defiance of the local authorities, figuratively spitting in their face, there is only so much an officer of the state can take. This is not a faceless entity - Israel - it is people who care about the country, care about the concept of the country. Push Israelis too far, and they will lash back. The officer clearly lost it there for a couple of moments. Unfortunate. But one has to ask - what caused him to do that?

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3 years ago  ::  Apr 17, 2012 - 1:14PM #18
CharikIeia
Posts: 8,301

Apr 17, 2012 -- 10:05AM, shmuelgoldstein wrote:


Payback Time - Israel haters harass IDF, break officer´s finger, get hit in the face, whine about it


The attitude of the previous sentence is an attitude of requiring that people take responsibility for their own actions. When you taunt a Lion, you're going to get bitten. "Hey, stupid, get out of the Lions' den!!" That's the attitude. It's a realistic, mature attitude.



Mature people don't need to speak of payback, stylise trained soldiers as harassed victims while portraying unarmed vagrants as haters who whine when they document a transgression. The sentence is very immature, childish, and caters to self-righteous indignation. A lion would just not care and remain silent.



When there is a group of foreigners - not Jewish, not Arab - clear foreigners in the Holy Land, who belong to a group that objects to the legitimacy of Israel, and carries out acts in defiance of the local authorities, figuratively spitting in their face, there is only so much an officer of the state can take. This is not a faceless entity - Israel - it is people who care about the country, care about the concept of the country. Push Israelis too far, and they will lash back. The officer clearly lost it there for a couple of moments. Unfortunate. But one has to ask - what caused him to do that?



Fair enough, it's understandable, it's unfortunate, and the whole action is disingenuous.

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3 years ago  ::  Apr 18, 2012 - 7:56AM #19
Dostojevsky
Posts: 7,857

Others have said West Bank is an open prison. It's understandable Israel would keep it out of reach to 'foreigners'. 
Easter celebrates suffering and compassion. These human traits were on display on Easter Sunday at European airports and in the Holy Land, reports Eric Walberg
Ben Gurion Airport was thrown into chaos for the third annual Flytilla on Sunday.


The prison guards rose to the occasion. Airports around the world were issued no-fly lists with 730 names, and airlines were warned they better kick them and any other suspicious passengers off their planes, or the airlines would be charged for the cost of deporting them. 650 undercover police swarmed Ben Gurion with their guns and tear gas, just in case.
The high tech planning against the low tech protesters mostly worked. Members of "Welcome to Palestine" say up to 200 of the 2,000 activists from 15 countries, a third of them from France, were prevented from flying to Tel Aviv from Paris, Brussels, Basel, Geneva and Zurich on Sunday. Apartheid-complicit airlines included Jet2.com, Brussels Airlines, Lufthansa, Alitalia, Swiss Air and Turkish Airlines.


The Welcome to Palestine Campaign stated: "Those who wanted to welcome our visitors and were brutally assaulted will remember how the same Israeli police let right wing fanatics sing and disrupt at the airport. The whole world is now seeing Israel for what it is: a police state that fulfills all the requirements of being an apartheid pariah state per the International Convention on the Suppression and Punishment of the Crime of Apartheid (1973)", and charged that "those airlines and governments that acted as subcontractors for the Israeli apartheid regime are being challenged by their own people."
Last year, around 800 people tried to join the campaign, 400 blocked from flying by the airlines. Another 120 were deported by Israel. The term "flytilla" recalls attempts by activists to reach Israeli-blockaded Gaza by boat, which have come to be known as "Freedom Flotillas".


Israeli apartheid is not perfect. Two lonely voices in the Knesset denounced the crackdown. Meretz leader Zehava Gal-On said blacklisting pro-Palestinian activists only deepens delegtimisation of Israel. MP Haneen Zoabi said it proves that Israel violates human rights not only of Palestinians but of people from all around the world. An Israeli official admitted that 40 per cent of the names on Shin Bet security blacklist were not activists at all.

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3 years ago  ::  Apr 18, 2012 - 8:04AM #20
Dostojevsky
Posts: 7,857

cont.


Included among the blacklisted were: a French diplomat and his wife looking for an apartment in Jerusalem; an Italian government official scheduled to meet her Israeli counterparts; and a member of the board of directors of German pharmaceutical giant Merck with 10 million euros for the Weizmann Institute of Science. In the mix-up, even Israelis were blacklisted. "We put people on the list who are as far removed from anti-Israel political activity as east is from west," one Israel Foreign Ministry official complained. "We have insulted hundreds of foreign citizens because of suspicions, and have given the other side a victory on a silver platter."


ericwalberg.com


 

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