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Switch to Forum Live View Günter Grass declared persona non grata in Israel
3 years ago  ::  Apr 17, 2012 - 10:18AM #31
shmuelgoldstein
Posts: 2,496

Apr 17, 2012 -- 8:51AM, CharikIeia wrote:


Apr 17, 2012 -- 7:28AM, shmuelgoldstein wrote:


Local Arabs ... are foreigners.



Why then are they called "local", if I may ask?




Because they are there (or rather, here) at the moment. They belong in Arab lands, not in Eretz Yisrael. 

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3 years ago  ::  Apr 17, 2012 - 10:21AM #32
LeahOne
Posts: 16,473

Because it's a part of the disinformation campaign to portray 'Arabs' as being 'native' and 'Jews' as 'colonialists' or 'foreigners' or 'Europeans', Chari.


You can see that pretty clearly in several posts right on this thread:  the false assumption that there were no Jews in the land before the 1920's or so, alongside the other false assumption that whichever Arabs were living in the Mandate in 1947 were 'indigenous' or 'native' and had lived in those very villages for thousands of years.


I do not share all of Schmuel's views on this topic. But if the argument's going to be made that Israel was not 'Jewish' land because there was no 'Jewish' state there since BCE days  - well, there never was a 'Palestinian' state in all the same time-frame, either.


Now the argument *could* be made that this was 'Muslim' land, because the Ottomans were Muslim - but for most 'Westerners' that is 'racist' (for lack of a better term).  Further, it's one of the complaints against the religiofascist ideology of people like the Taliban and Salafis - a complaint which I believe many Muslims share?

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3 years ago  ::  Apr 17, 2012 - 12:41PM #33
CharikIeia
Posts: 8,301

Apr 17, 2012 -- 10:21AM, LeahOne wrote:


... if the argument's going to be made that Israel was not 'Jewish' land ...



On this thread,the only claim (not even argument) that was being made is that Arabs now living in Israel or the other areas west of the Jordan river are somehow illegitimate inhabitants that need to go.


It was off topic already, and obviously I should not have reacted to it. But I tend to get irritated by such stances, and wonder why representatives of "the maybe most deported people ever" (to quote Squirrel) would suggest as much for other people.

tl;dr
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3 years ago  ::  Apr 17, 2012 - 4:00PM #34
BDboy
Posts: 6,210

Apr 17, 2012 -- 12:41PM, CharikIeia wrote:


Apr 17, 2012 -- 10:21AM, LeahOne wrote:


... if the argument's going to be made that Israel was not 'Jewish' land ...



On this thread,the only claim (not even argument) that was being made is that Arabs now living in Israel or the other areas west of the Jordan river are somehow illegitimate inhabitants that need to go.


It was off topic already, and obviously I should not have reacted to it. But I tend to get irritated by such stances, and wonder why representatives of "the maybe most deported people ever" (to quote Squirrel) would suggest as much for other people.




>>>>>>>> There are fanatics and terrorists in Israel as well. I understand many Israeli do not support "Deportation" of native population but many do. We have few members with that "Racist" view.


Fact is there were SOME Jews living in historical Palestine/Israel for centuries. No argument there. The disturbing part happened when the "native" found out they are not wanted in their own lands anymore. Since Israeli fanatics are working hard to get rid of those native population ONLY to be "Replaced" by Jews from Russia, Poland, USA, France, India etc.


I do not think ANYONE would "Enjoy" such proposal. But that is what is expected of non-Jewish natives in the holy land. Herr Grass only protested such abuse by Israel.


So the spoiled child of ME got "Angry" and banned him from entering Israel. Guess this idiotic step made him even more popular all over the world.


A 21st century world should not tolerate such abuse of non-Jews in Israel. Which also occupied the whole of west bank and Gaza for decades.


We all should be "Irritated" by such fanatics. That is the least we can do for oppressed Muslims and Christians of the holy land.


Lastly a fore fathers of large number of people who are "Targeted" for future deportation used to be follower of Moses themselves. With the arrival of Jesus son of Mary, many of their forefathers converted to Christianity and later to Islam as well. They are termed as "outsider" (Auslander in German I guess) by Israel because once upon a time forefathers of these people converted to islam and Christianity. So it is also an open religious discrimination by "Jewish state of Israel".


Don't think Israel will survive very long with such fanatical policies ....


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3 years ago  ::  Apr 17, 2012 - 4:07PM #35
BDboy
Posts: 6,210

Apr 17, 2012 -- 7:48AM, shmuelgoldstein wrote:


Apr 12, 2012 -- 3:07PM, BDboy wrote:

...lastly do understand local non-jews have some valid claims 



No.


Local Arabs do not have a claim to one square inch of the land.


They are foreigners.


It is not their land.




 


>>>>>> keep telling yourself this few thousand more times. The whole world knows FACTS about Palestine and Israel.


History has an unique way to sort things out. I am sure open abuse of local non-Jews will not last forever...

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3 years ago  ::  Apr 17, 2012 - 4:17PM #36
rocketjsquirell
Posts: 16,589

BDboy


There is no move in Israel to deport anyone and there never was. No one is suggesting that the non-native invasives (to use the botanical terminology for the Arabs) be deported.  On the other hand, the non-native invasives have it as their official stated policy to deport the native Jewish population. 

Moderated by CharikIeia on Apr 17, 2012 - 05:41PM
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3 years ago  ::  Apr 17, 2012 - 4:40PM #37
BDboy
Posts: 6,210

Apr 17, 2012 -- 4:17PM, rocketjsquirell wrote:


BDboy


There is no move in Israel to deport anyone and there never was. No one is suggesting that the non-native invasives (to use the botanical terminology for the Arabs) be deported.  On the other hand, the non-native invasives have it as their official stated policy to deport the native Jewish population. 



>>>>>>>>Maybe you are not aware of Lieberman (Israeli FM) and his ideas. There are many Israelis who want to move the arabs out. Some of them even posted here in B-net with those opinions. As I have been around many years, I have seen them.


I am actually "Bothered" when I hear about Jews facing problem in different countries. For example Jews lived in different parts of ME for centuries in relative comfortably. Until Israel started violence against native non-Jews, it became unsafe for many to stay in different native countries.


There are still many Iranian Jews living in Iran. I bet you once Israelis decides to attack Iran, it will be most difficult for those innocent Jews. That is why I firmly feel Israeli fnatical policies are the biggest threat to the state of Israel. Not the rock thowering teen agers of Gaza....

Moderated by CharikIeia on Apr 17, 2012 - 05:42PM
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3 years ago  ::  Apr 17, 2012 - 5:31PM #38
rocketjsquirell
Posts: 16,589

BDBOY


For centuries Jews were an oppressed minority in Arab and Muslim lands. They were subject to many indignities which were supported by the Muslim apartheid laws known as Dhimmi.


The Jews were deported from the Arab countries because they wwere Jews and because Israel committed the "unforgivable sin" of surviving the attack of the invading Arab armies. The Arab governments and the Arab Muslim populations could not deal with it, so they evicted their Jewish populations. Some of us are very familiar with the process. It wasn't a new process, stealing the lands and possessions of Jews was something that the Arabs had been doing since they emerged from Arabia. Sad but true.  


Moderated by CharikIeia on Apr 17, 2012 - 05:39PM
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3 years ago  ::  Apr 17, 2012 - 5:34PM #39
browbeaten
Posts: 3,232

Apr 17, 2012 -- 5:31PM, rocketjsquirell wrote:


BDBOY


For centuries Jews were an oppressed minority in Arab and Muslim lands. They were subject to many indignities which were supported by the Muslim apartheid laws known as Dhimmi.


The Jews were deported from the Arab countries because they wwere Jews and because Israel committed the "unforgivable sin" of surviving the attack of the invading Arab armies. The Arab governments and the Arab Muslim populations could not deal with it, so they evicted their Jewish populations. Some of us are very familiar with the process. It wasn't a new process, stealing the lands and possessions of Jews was something that the Arabs had been doing since they emerged from Arabia. Sad but true.



Arabs have always had a problem with Jews.  It has always been a "Jewish" thing.  That is why they cannot negotiate with Jews, etc.  The problem stares everyone in the face, but they can't seem to acknowledge it.

Moderated by CharikIeia on Apr 17, 2012 - 05:40PM
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3 years ago  ::  Apr 20, 2012 - 12:42PM #40
BDboy
Posts: 6,210

Apr 17, 2012 -- 7:48AM, shmuelgoldstein wrote:


Apr 12, 2012 -- 3:07PM, BDboy wrote:

...lastly do understand local non-jews have some valid claims 



No.


Local Arabs do not have a claim to one square inch of the land.


They are foreigners.


It is not their land.




 


>>>>>>> Yup, I hear ya "Herr Goldstein". You are the local guy and the Arabs came after "Passover"?? eh?  Wink


Auf Wiedersehen!!

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