Chari

Has anyone in Germany (besides the government which obviously knows) considered why a tiny country like Israel would need long range submarines? It is precisely to prevent nuclear and other war ( sort of you can destroy us but even then we can still destroy you - MAD strategy) So far it has worked, more or less. Peace would be better, but until then, being prepared and stronger is Israel's only protection.

I have read the poem.  It is amazing that so much should be made of so little.  A clear example of how anything said  about Israel should be approached like  walking on eggshells. 

Grass  is right.  It is time to say some things that need to be said. Time to get over this insane  guilt that the Zionists have been  milking  since WW2,  by constantly painting themselves as the perpetual victims of the world in order to get away with things they should not be getting away with.

 The world and Israel are  vastly  different today than they were when they were victimized, eons ago. Many new victims have replaced them.

Apr 9, 2012 -- 1:47AM, habesor wrote:

I would appreciate your translation of the poem and your interpretation of it as a German and as a European.

It's long, and poetry is difficult to translate. I found a translation at the WaPo site:

www.washingtonpost.com/world/middle_east...

It seems less structured and I cannot follow the language as I can in the German original, so maybe it is not the best translation, but it contains no mis-translations at least, as far as I could tell.

Now, as for my opinion about Grass's poem as translated by Google, I think that he was more than a little "over the top". He hasn't said much more than any other European Leftist would be expected to say or write. So I don't find much of the poem particularly disturbing. There are two or three elements that I disagree with or cannot fathom why he left them out. One of the left outs was the pressure that countries like Saudi Arabia and the Persian Gulf states are putting on the USA (while encouraging Israel) to attack the nuclear facilities in Iran.  Which brings me to the next point: Grass's view of a world which only contains Israel and Iran (and German suppliers of Israel). In truth, this perspective and Grass's placing Israel as the main danger to world peace (if I understand him correctly) could be an allusion to the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, or if not exactly an allusion, perhaps a statement which resonates with those who believe the protocols to be true. That bothers me a bit.

Finally, like many on the left, Grass assumes the pose of the heroic messenger of truth to the powerful, no matter what the danger. I think that this is posturing with almost no basis in reality. If you really want to see messengers of truth to the powerful who are actually in danger, one might look at imprisoned Iranian or Palestinian journalists. I used the word "almost" because I can understand how a German might feel particularly self-conscious about criticism of the Jewish state, given our histories. But along with the excessive criticism, it seems to me that Grass is overdoing the posturing.

Char, I await your response.

Habesor

I think we agree on the (lack of) merit of this particular poem.

Char,

Is there really so little critical discussion of Israeli policies in Germany? Usually when such a statement is made, it is factually incorrect and the person making the statement is really complaining that his side is not being listened to or lacks credibility with the majority of the listeners.

On this forum I've seen interlocutors declare that their opponent accused them of Antisemitism when no such accusations were made. It's kind of ironic that in a debate on the Arab-Israeli conflict one often has to refrain from pointing out the obvious Antisemitic nature of a statement because you will be accused of playing the Antisemitism card, as if that were somehow illegitimate. Generally speaking, I refrain from bringing Antisemitism into a discussion, not because there aren't people who are anti-Israel because they don't like Jews but rather because I tend to find that fact irrelevant. Oddly, if someone is anti-Israel because they don't like Jews, they usually make inconsistent, counter factual or illogical arguments which are fairly easy to shred, without having to point out what is obvious to most observers.

Habesor

Apr 10, 2012 -- 10:28AM, habesor wrote:

Char, Is there really so little critical discussion of Israeli policies in Germany?

I guess the answer is 'yes'.

There is a quite strong consensus to better not patronise Israelis.

The chancellor recently spoke of support of Israel as a raison d'état of Germany's.