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Switch to Forum Live View Günter Grass declared persona non grata in Israel
2 years ago  ::  Apr 11, 2012 - 12:42AM #21
habesor
Posts: 5,430

Char,


When I was in University in the USA in 1966, I was tasked with arranging a debate on the Arab-Israeli conflict at the Hillel House, which was the Jewish campus organization. To take the pro-Israeli side I recruited Si Kennan, who was the head of AIPAC, then a fairly new organization that was trying to make a name for itself. I approached a professor of Middle East Studies (whose name I forgot) and asked her to take the Arab side of the debate. Her answer was that being of German background, it would be grotesque for her to argue the Arab case. In the end I recruited Harry Howard of the Middle East Institute to argue the Arab position.  I have never forgotten the professor's answer and when I used the word "almost" in the earlier message, it was that response which I had in mind.


I was going to continue this message with "Antisemitism is the elephant in the room..." but instead I would argue that prejudice is the elephant in the room that no one wants to talk about. I would argue this because I have seen hatred of Jews, hatred of Arabs hatred of Muslims and Christians distort the way many people view as well as draw attention to our little conflict here in the Middle East. Most of the time these hatreds cause people to take the "other" side. But sometimes, in odd sorts of ways, it causes them to become philo and not anti of the side they hate. One example of this hate inspired philo position was that of John B. Glubb or Glubb Pasha as he was known when he commanded the Jordan "Arab Legion". Reading his book "A soldier With The Arabs" more than fifty years after it was written reveals a love for the Arabs based mostly on their quaint primitive nature and racial inferiority; today recognized as a racism of lesser expectations. It runs all through today's Arab and Palestinian narrative and can be summarized as: well what do you expect, they're only Arabs.


Getting back to the German situation; given our mutual history, Germans taking a pro-Arab line does look a bit grotesque. The hi-jacking of the aircraft which led to the Entebbe rescue mission was carried out by combined PLO and Radical Leftist German terrorists. In the dramatizations of this incident, the portrayal of the German element always has a historical resonance that is absent from the Ugandan and Palestinian elements. I suppose that it can't be helped.


This question of historical resonance has been addressed and questioned in Israeli culture. The example that comes to mind was in an Israeli movie about two friends who decided to make a fortune by buying a limousine from a local Arab, shipping it to Germany and selling it there at a big profit. Of course their plans go wrong and they come to grief. But in one of the scenes they are stopped on the highway by the German police and one of them, sincerely, says something to the effect that he knows how Germans treat Jews. The young German policeman says, "But I wasn't even born until twenty years after the war". For Israeli audiences it was a thought provoking moment because it so clearly reversed the traditional roles of who was prejudiced and who was the object of the prejudice.


Anyway, it's early morning here and I have work to do on the farm before I take the grandchildren to the cinemateque in Sderot to see "The Lady and the Tramp", so I won't ramble on much more. But I think that Gunther Grass has fumbled the ball on these questions with his poem.


Habesor       


Habesor
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 11, 2012 - 4:12PM #22
BDboy
Posts: 4,558

Apr 10, 2012 -- 11:54PM, Erey wrote:


Israel is not the only western country that does this kind of thing.  I think it was Michael Savage the conservative talk show host who was denied admitance into the UK  a couple of years ago. Just because someone in the government did not like him.  They considered him dangerous


www.washingtontimes.com/news/2010/jul/12...




 


>>>>>>>>> Last time I checked Israel was in the middle east. It is NOT a western country. I know this probably was a simple mistake but it says a lot of about how Israel is viewed in the neighborhood. Since it is supported by many western countries. As Chari said, the Germans are paying most (around 66%) for these Dolphin class submarines.


Those who criticise Israel, as a "Western outpost" from the colonial era clearly refers to Israel's refusal to show any respect and acceptance for local culture. Israel still acts like the colonial masters of last century and today it is clear it is being supported by those Euro countries to keep up uncivilized policies. Where Jews and non-Jews are treated differently.



 

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 11, 2012 - 4:43PM #23
habesor
Posts: 5,430

BDBoy, you wrote:


"Those who criticise Israel, as a "Western outpost" from the colonial era clearly refers to Israel's refusal to show any respect and acceptance for local culture."


Hmmm... does this mean that Israel should shoot down 10,000 of its own citizens, set up a dictatorship that can be passed on from father to son, let itself be domeinated by religious fanaticism, oppress the female half of its population and execute people for being gay? Just what is it about the local culture do you think should be respected and accepted by the State of Israel?


Habesor  

Habesor
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 11, 2012 - 9:48PM #24
rangerken
Posts: 15,823

Apr 11, 2012 -- 4:43PM, habesor wrote:


BDBoy, you wrote:


"Those who criticise Israel, as a "Western outpost" from the colonial era clearly refers to Israel's refusal to show any respect and acceptance for local culture."


Hmmm... does this mean that Israel should shoot down 10,000 of its own citizens, set up a dictatorship that can be passed on from father to son, let itself be domeinated by religious fanaticism, oppress the female half of its population and execute people for being gay? Just what is it about the local culture do you think should be respected and accepted by the State of Israel?


Habesor  




All cultures are not equal and are not deserving of equal respect. I wonder what exactly is  within...let's say...Syrian culture...or Egyptian culture...or the so called culture inside Hamasd controlled Gaza...that Israel should emulate? In my opinion, the answer is nothing!


Ken

Libertarian, Conservative, Life member of the NRA and VFW
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 12, 2012 - 3:07PM #25
BDboy
Posts: 4,558

Apr 11, 2012 -- 4:43PM, habesor wrote:


BDBoy, you wrote:


"Those who criticise Israel, as a "Western outpost" from the colonial era clearly refers to Israel's refusal to show any respect and acceptance for local culture."


Hmmm... does this mean that Israel should shoot down 10,000 of its own citizens, set up a dictatorship that can be passed on from father to son, let itself be domeinated by religious fanaticism, oppress the female half of its population and execute people for being gay? Just what is it about the local culture do you think should be respected and accepted by the State of Israel?


Habesor  




 


>>>>>>> Trying to be funny? ;-)


Of course dictatorship in some Arab countries are not the "Culture" of those countries.  


 


Israel needs to realize for last 2000 years many non-Jews lived in the land claimed by Israel. They got along fine for hundreds of years. When Israel continues with settlements and evicts more non-Jews from their ancient homeland, it does not help.


Do realize Israel has it's share of religious fanatics and war mongers.


When I speak to local Palestinians, the feedback I get about Israel is similar to how the British ruled India. They never really accepted local Indian culture and ruled India for around 200 years.


Israel continues to ignore calls from native population and imports more people from Europe, India and many other parts of the world. I mean this is a policy which cannot sustain for very long. We have talking about a limited real estate here!!


lastly do understand local non-jews have some valid claims and state of Israel continues to ignore their calls using excuses after excuses.


If you look back and look up history books, you will see people do not get angry for no reasons. When protest when no one is addressing their needs (As seen in Arab Spring!). Israel needs to take Palestinians as neighbors and work out a solution for lasting peace.


If not for Palestinians, for Israel's own long term survival.




 

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 12, 2012 - 3:17PM #26
BDboy
Posts: 4,558

Apr 11, 2012 -- 9:48PM, rangerken wrote:


Apr 11, 2012 -- 4:43PM, habesor wrote:


BDBoy, you wrote:


"Those who criticise Israel, as a "Western outpost" from the colonial era clearly refers to Israel's refusal to show any respect and acceptance for local culture."


Hmmm... does this mean that Israel should shoot down 10,000 of its own citizens, set up a dictatorship that can be passed on from father to son, let itself be domeinated by religious fanaticism, oppress the female half of its population and execute people for being gay? Just what is it about the local culture do you think should be respected and accepted by the State of Israel?


Habesor  




All cultures are not equal and are not deserving of equal respect. I wonder what exactly is  within...let's say...Syrian culture...or Egyptian culture...or the so called culture inside Hamasd controlled Gaza...that Israel should emulate? In my opinion, the answer is nothing!


Ken




 


>>>>>>>> But the Israelis expect to be accepted by Arabs while it did not even exists even 100 years ago?


One can laugh at Saddams and Ghadaffis of arab countries but do realize they have been actively aided by western countries. Arabs were not given a chance to design their destiny in most countries.


When Europeans were murdering Jews like cattle, many Muslim countries gave room to their "Spiritual cousins". These are facts and these hospitality, friendship are part of Arab culture.


One can debate for the sake of debate but I think we know what I am talking about. When we talk about European culture, it would be wrong to use this story as main stream culture. Albeit Europeans probably have more this type of relationship than any other continent.  


Just talking about trying to be Roman when you are in Rome. Just plain common sense. Nothing like rocket science folks.

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 17, 2012 - 7:28AM #27
shmuelgoldstein
Posts: 2,171

Apr 8, 2012 -- 6:34PM, CharikIeia wrote:


Apr 8, 2012 -- 11:39AM, CharikIeia wrote:


... Israeli minister for the interior Eli Jischai ... declared the poor old man undesired, and banned him from entering Israel (no such plans are known, by the way - it's quite an exclusively rhetorical stance).



I just read that his new demand is to retract the Nobel Prize.


What kind of clown is this Yishai?




Ha ha. Pretty funny.


You're jealous.


He's not afraid of world opinion, and certainly not yours. He stands on his principles.


And oh, he was elected in free and open democratic elections. He represents a portion of the Israeli public.

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 17, 2012 - 7:48AM #28
shmuelgoldstein
Posts: 2,171

Apr 12, 2012 -- 3:07PM, BDboy wrote:

...lastly do understand local non-jews have some valid claims 



No.


Local Arabs do not have a claim to one square inch of the land.


They are foreigners.


It is not their land.

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2 years ago  ::  Apr 17, 2012 - 8:51AM #29
CharikIeia
Posts: 8,303

Apr 17, 2012 -- 7:28AM, shmuelgoldstein wrote:


Apr 8, 2012 -- 6:34PM, CharikIeia wrote:


What kind of clown is this Yishai?



Ha ha. Pretty funny.


You're jealous.


He's not afraid of world opinion, and certainly not yours. He stands on his principles.



Everyone is entitled to embarrass oneself, even make a complete fool out of oneself - whether the name is Grass or Yishai :-)



And oh, he was elected in free and open democratic elections. He represents a portion of the Israeli public.



I guess the people who voted for him didn't exactly do so because of his insight into literature, the meaning of the Nobel Prize for literature, or politically measured response to poetry.


And now for something completely different...



Local Arabs ... are foreigners.



Why then are they called "local", if I may ask?

tl;dr
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2 years ago  ::  Apr 17, 2012 - 10:16AM #30
shmuelgoldstein
Posts: 2,171

Apr 17, 2012 -- 8:51AM, CharikIeia wrote:

 I guess the people who voted for him didn't exactly do so because of his insight into literature, the meaning of the Nobel Prize for literature, or politically measured response to poetry.



Quite true, and rightly so.


They elected him because he represents a Jewish outlook and a religious outlook. He belongs to the Shass party.


 

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